The curious case of the Rapid Light Missile Launcher

[Ophichius]

I think you'll find you're either flying or fitting your tackle frigates wrong.

If you're referring to solo frigate engagement on oversized targets you're pretty much in that situation anyways. And anything youre engaging with now has more than 3-4k ehp and/or an active tank already.

I'm talking solo. Fleets, you tackle someone for ten seconds and then explode, you've still done your job and something heavier should have point by then.

Solo, you're talking about -two highs- able to pump out 4k damage. That's sufficient to force an utterly stupid choice. If I close in, tackle, they suddenly RLML me, I've got zero good options in a T1 hull. If I pull range to GTFO, transversal drops, suddenly all the rest of their highs can hit me. If I stick around for the reload, I'm deep in hull and have no shields when the next volley comes around, and I die. My only viable option is not engaging anything sporting RLML turret models. Ever. And this is assuming they're not fitting a web. Rupture with a web and two RLMLs? Death unto frigates.

I like the general thinking of high DPS + long reloads as an interesting way to distinguish the RLML, but you don't need to be crippling the frigate ecosystem right as it's starting to bounce back.

-O

[W0lf Crendraven]

I think you'll find you're either flying or fitting your tackle frigates wrong.

If you're referring to solo frigate engagement on oversized targets you're pretty much in that situation anyways. And anything youre engaging with now has more than 3-4k ehp and/or an active tank already.

I'm talking solo. Fleets, you tackle someone for ten seconds and then explode, you've still done your job and something heavier should have point by then.

Solo, you're talking about -two highs- able to pump out 4k damage. That's sufficient to force an utterly stupid choice. If I close in, tackle, they suddenly RLML me, I've got zero good options in a T1 hull. If I pull range to GTFO, transversal drops, suddenly all the rest of their highs can hit me. If I stick around for the reload, I'm deep in hull and have no shields when the next volley comes around, and I die. My only viable option is not engaging anything sporting RLML turret models. Ever. And this is assuming they're not fitting a web. Rupture with a web and two RLMLs? Death unto frigates.

I like the general thinking of high DPS + long reloads as an interesting way to distinguish the RLML, but you don't need to be crippling the frigate ecosystem right as it's starting to bounce back.

-O

What are you talking about? A two rml rupture would deal aprox 120 dps with two launchers vs a propless (i.e turned off mwd) merlin with mse, 72 if the merlin had a ab, and that for 25 seconds, dealing about 3kdps thats not very much, youd need three minutes to kill a merlin at which point it will have done 36k damage, more than a usual rupture has for ehp. This gets even worse for the rupture if the merlin has a asb fitted! And thats vs a merlin, any assualt frigate can laugh at that kind of dps!

[Tyrus Tenebros]

yeah the idea would be to add to your dps... if all you've got going for you is the RLMLs, even boosted, they wouldn't exactly be life-threatening, except from a caracal volley, which would be horribly, horribly unhealthy for frigates to be near. (And 10 caracals would be horribly, horribly unhealthy for ANYTHING to be near )

[Rudolf Miller]

yeah the idea would be to add to your dps... if all you've got going for you is the RLMLs, even boosted, they wouldn't exactly be life-threatening, except from a caracal volley, which would be horribly, horribly unhealthy for frigates to be near. (And 10 caracals would be horribly, horribly unhealthy for ANYTHING to be near )

Boost the cerb

[Pattern]

Has anyone thought long and hard about the conseqences of adding more ways for bigger ships to wtfpwn frigs?

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Has anyone thought long and hard about the conseqences of adding more ways for bigger ships to wtfpwn frigs?

Yeah in fact almost all of the discussion in this thread is about exactly that.

[Dorian Mystos]

These always bugged me. It looks like these were made for a destroyer and never implemented. I half suspect that at one time someone was thinking of making a whole set of modules for destroyers and this was one of the left overs. Since ccp has mentioned putting in four new destroyers, two missile versions and two drone versions, I think they should modify these a bit to be used on them. Give the ship a big bonus to using them and that way you avoid breaking anything.

[Rudolf Miller]

These always bugged me. It looks like these were made for a destroyer and never implemented. I half suspect that at one time someone was thinking of making a whole set of modules for destroyers and this was one of the left overs. Since ccp has mentioned putting in four new destroyers, two missile versions and two drone versions, I think they should modify these a bit to be used on them. Give the ship a big bonus to using them and that way you avoid breaking anything.

A tier 2 destroy designed like a tier 3 BC would be pretty cool.

Would still royally fuck up frigates without some kind of balance done to the ammo the RLML uses (in other words a new ammo would need to be made)

[Zibu]

These always bugged me. It looks like these were made for a destroyer and never implemented. I half suspect that at one time someone was thinking of making a whole set of modules for destroyers and this was one of the left overs. Since ccp has mentioned putting in four new destroyers, two missile versions and two drone versions, I think they should modify these a bit to be used on them. Give the ship a big bonus to using them and that way you avoid breaking anything.

To be honest they look like they should be part of the whole dual-low caliber gun system. Where you get a lower sized long range weapon with higher ROF as a short range weapon for a ship one size up.
Too bad only missiles were actually implemented.

[prometheus]

These always bugged me. It looks like these were made for a destroyer and never implemented. I half suspect that at one time someone was thinking of making a whole set of modules for destroyers and this was one of the left overs. Since ccp has mentioned putting in four new destroyers, two missile versions and two drone versions, I think they should modify these a bit to be used on them. Give the ship a big bonus to using them and that way you avoid breaking anything.

A tier 2 destroy designed like a tier 3 BC would be pretty cool.

Would still royally fuck up frigates without some kind of balance done to the ammo the RLML uses (in other words a new ammo would need to be made)

For the love of god no.
The tier3 BCs have already fucked up basic pvp, and are in dire need of iteration (aka speed nerf).
The last thing we need are super long-range destroyer hulls that instalock/blap cruisers while flying around at 3km/s and 2s align time.

[Sponk]

The tier3 BCs have already fucked up basic pvp, and are in dire need of iteration (aka speed nerf).
The last thing we need are super long-range destroyer hulls that instalock/blap cruisers while flying around at 3km/s and 2s align time.

What role would the ti3 have then? Just sniper platforms?

[Varcaus]

The tier3 BCs have already fucked up basic pvp, and are in dire need of iteration (aka speed nerf).
The last thing we need are super long-range destroyer hulls that instalock/blap cruisers while flying around at 3km/s and 2s align time.

What role would the ti3 have then? Just sniper platforms?

Aka useless

[prometheus]

The tier3 BCs have already fucked up basic pvp, and are in dire need of iteration (aka speed nerf).
The last thing we need are super long-range destroyer hulls that instalock/blap cruisers while flying around at 3km/s and 2s align time.

What role would the ti3 have then? Just sniper platforms?

Agile weapon platforms. Not the WTFBBQ ships they are now.

AKA significantly faster and more agile than every bc & cruiser hull except for the Stabbers & Cynabal
It doesn't take anything to be faster than the equivalent Battleship, so there is no excuse for them to be as fast as they are.

They shouldn't be more agile than Cruisers.
They probably shouldn't be more agile than BCs (although, if that means making BCs a bit more agile, then w/e).
They definitely shouldn't be faster than either in any category, Cruisers especially.

Look at Destroyers.
They aren't faster than frigates.
They aren't more agile than frigates.
Granted they are faster/more agile than Cruisers, but their severely limited range/ehp balances that out.

[Pattern]

Meh, page me when stabbers don't out run destroyers.

[Suitonia]

Stabbers don't do 900~+ DPS though. It's 1/3rd of that at 1km and at kiting range where it needs to be it's likely only going to be doing around 200 DPS. Pretty sure a Thrasher out damages a Stabber for example. (Although I think the Stabber is a bad example because it's fairly gimped) Where as a Tornado/Oracle/Naga/Talos do about 2x+ their racial equilivilant typical Close Range Cruiser DPS at Mid Range-BS ranges.

[Pattern]

Stabbers don't do 900~+ DPS though. It's 1/3rd of that at 1km and at kiting range where it needs to be it's likely only going to be doing around 200 DPS. Pretty sure a Thrasher out damages a Stabber for example. (Although I think the Stabber is a bad example because it's fairly gimped) Where as a Tornado/Oracle/Naga/Talos do about 2x+ their racial equilivilant typical Close Range Cruiser DPS at Mid Range-BS ranges.

Not wanting to get into a stats circle jurk but stabber EHP > destroyer may times over.

Which is fine, given that battlecruisers are suppost to curb stomp cruisers whilst being weak to everything else. Regular BC's are less balanced in this reguard imo, (not weak to frigs) for reasons this thread highlights spectacularly.

[Marlona Sky]

When a Tornado can break 5k/s forcing any tackle to lose transversal in order to catch it (making it easy to blap with said tornado); things are not right.

[Varcaus]

When a Tornado can break 5k/s forcing any tackle to lose transversal in order to catch it (making it easy to blap with said tornado); things are not right.

Needs links links and snakes.

Spot the problem.

[StevieTopSiders]

Who HG Snakes a Tornado?

[Marlona Sky]

Who HG Snakes a Tornado?

I did in high sec while in RvB for a few days, but no links. Obviously not going 5k/s but still, it was very easy to just do whatever I wanted. That is till I was awoxed from some noobs who don't understand game mechanics.