[W-Space] general discussion

[Malaes]

Which, ironically, still won't let T3s swap subsystems.

Soundwave actually explained to me the reason why the couldn't do this! Shame I was pretty drunk and don't remember shit. Something about the model changing does work I think..

[AmaNutin]

Which, ironically, still won't let T3s swap subsystems.

You'll have to take the POS to station to refit modules.

[Duckslayer]

Which, ironically, still won't let T3s swap subsystems.

Soundwave actually explained to me the reason why the couldn't do this! Shame I was pretty drunk and don't remember shit. Something about the model changing does work I think..

cant remember any specifics but seem to be somewhat aware of a lot of shit that just couldnt be done, during/before :18 months: that subsequently could quite easily be done if somebody actually wanted to do it.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

oh yeah, hi two step I saw your blog post.

After reading two-step's defense of the POS changes I am now convinced that... POS docking is a bad idea.

Although continually playing the "CCP will just break it" card to deny simpler changes, he advocates a wholesale rebuild (as if that wont be stupidly broken).

How about a compromise: allow Capsule docking at a POS module to provide the single UI, and bite the T3 bullet and write the code to fix that.

As mentioned POS are mostly reviled for the impossible UI navigation, not actual functionality. In the end I have no problem with limited functionality to an extent: POS were originally intended to be frontier-style outposts, not replacements for 20+bn isk infrastructure investments. While there could certainly be improvement in efficiency (e.g. invention process UI), I disagree that POS should move towards station replacing efficiency

POSs were released before outposts were, so it's a bit silly to say what they were and weren't replacements for. Moreover, the intent of some developer nearly a decade ago (released in 2004) should not really guide what goes on now. There's no reason POSs should lack basic functionality compared to stations, and its obvious that they|

High and low sec had stations before null had POS. POS were established as a mechanism to make living in 0.0 viable if not as comfortable as empire. Then stations were introduced to permanently settle 0.0, and eventually w-space was introduced as the new "frontier space". In this sense I disagree with your basic premise that POS shouldn't lack station functionality.

I've never personally called for a wholesale revamp, and I.think people are rebelling again "new and different" because of the nature of the changes, not merely because they are so different.

[Daneel Trevize]

Which, ironically, still won't let T3s swap subsystems.

Soundwave actually explained to me the reason why the couldn't do this! Shame I was pretty drunk and don't remember shit. Something about the model changing does work I think..

cant remember any specifics but seem to be somewhat aware of a lot of shit that just couldnt be done, during/before :18 months: that subsequently could quite easily be done if somebody actually wanted to do it.

Exactly. I mean, it's not like someone can't just be in space at a POS and swap from 1 T3 of the same kind to another with just different subsystems. Ensure the pilot has freed up sufficient slots/weapon racks/drone bay on the current ship, and let them drag&drop that subsystem, placing the old one where the new one's come from. Only obvious possible issue might be if that new one was packaged and the old is unpacked while the container's full. If so, jet it in space/put in cargo?

Soundwave is bad and/or bullshitting you non-shocker.

[Cue1*]

if (ccp if)

This is my biggest fear of all at the moment. I love wormhole space, it's the only reason left I'm playing, I gave up on pretty much everything else. I may bitch and complain about the POS system, but many parts of it are right. There are few parts that are wrong, but a lot of it is definitely right.

[Ampoliros]

High and low sec had stations before null had POS. POS were established as a mechanism to make living in 0.0 viable if not as comfortable as empire. Then stations were introduced to permanently settle 0.0, and eventually w-space was introduced as the new "frontier space". In this sense I disagree with your basic premise that POS shouldn't lack station functionality.

I absolutely disagree that POSs have to somehow be less comfortable (perhaps more broken?) than empire to maintain 'frontier status' in w-space. 'Missing basic functionality' doesn't just mean the lack of market, contracts, jumpclones - i don't really care that much about them, but I'm certain some people do - it means basic UI commands and abilities available in stations aren't available at POSs (and probably can't ever be, given the way they're set up now). It also means that future gains made toward improving the UI, fitting windows, etc, may not ever properly benefit w-space inhabitants or POS owners.

In short, I don't get the feeling of living on the frontier just because the UI and mechanics of living in POSs are underdeveloped, or because services are missing or unusable.

I've never personally called for a wholesale revamp, and I.think people are rebelling again "new and different" because of the nature of the changes, not merely because they are so different.

I think a lot of people have, i thought the F&I POS revamp thread was pretty much the most popular thread there, at least on the old forums. v0v

[Durzel]

Do you not think there is something nomadic about only being able to have a POS in w-space? Some have argued that even that is too much...

I think broadly speaking aside from the T3 subsystem issue and not enough granularity in CHA/SMA access permissions (i.e. on a per user, per CHA/SMA basis) - which is arguably a corp management issue than a POS one - that POSes in w-space are pretty much ok.

I don't subscribe to the argument that POSes in w-space should be as comfortable and feature-packed as stations. It isn't that onerous to crash your static to get an empire exit to ~do shit~, if you're living in a C6 with C6 with limited/sporadic/unreliable k-space access well them's the breaks I'm afraid. People having to go to empire to refit their T3* means chances to catch those people.

* How often does this actually happen in practice anyway - since rigs can't be removed it's not like you can flip-flop between completely different builds without gimping yourself anyway. I can count on one hand the number of times I've stripped a T3 ship I'd previously fitted instead of just buying another hull + rigs + modules for whichever purpose I need to fill suddenly.

[Duckslayer]

Do you not think there is something nomadic about only being able to have a POS in w-space? Some have argued that even that is too much...

I think broadly speaking aside from the T3 subsystem issue and not enough granularity in CHA/SMA access permissions (i.e. on a per user, per CHA/SMA basis) - which is arguably a corp management issue than a POS one - that POSes in w-space are pretty much ok.

I don't subscribe to the argument that POSes in w-space should be as comfortable and feature-packed as stations. It isn't that onerous to crash your static to get an empire exit to ~do shit~, if you're living in a C6 with C6 with limited/sporadic/unreliable k-space access well them's the breaks I'm afraid. People having to go to empire to refit their T3* means chances to catch those people.

* How often does this actually happen in practice anyway - since rigs can't be removed it's not like you can flip-flop between completely different builds without gimping yourself anyway. I can count on one hand the number of times I've stripped a T3 ship I'd previously fitted instead of just buying another hull + rigs + modules for whichever purpose I need to fill suddenly.

its not just that. ever had to rep hull damage when you live at a pos? tried to refit a ship when 3001m away from the corp hangar? tried to open an sma when not within 2500m? painful stuff. Also, direct empire access is pretty fucking impossible to get more times than say once a quarter in our c2 hole. Low hanging fruit

[Cue1*]

* How often does this actually happen in practice anyway - since rigs can't be removed it's not like you can flip-flop between completely different builds without gimping yourself anyway. I can count on one hand the number of times I've stripped a T3 ship I'd previously fitted instead of just buying another hull + rigs + modules for whichever purpose I need to fill suddenly.

The real issue is just being able to assemble the T3s you make in W-space instead of having to fly it out to empire, assemble it, then fly it back to W-space. The only time I'd see myself regularly refitting a T3 is switching to a covops T3.

[two step]

If Two Step would have aired his love for docking games pre 2012 CSM election he would ended up equal to Xenuria.

It was shortly after the election, but I did write up a blog post here: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012...for-poses.html where I talked about what I wanted from a new pos system. I was also pretty clear during the last election about my feelings on what should be part of a POS redesign.

As I explain in the blog post, I certainly don't love docking games, but I also don't think POSes will have that problem. Having POS guns and points is a pretty large difference between some random lowsec station and a POS, and I just don't see people camping undocks when a properly set up POS would blap them pretty quickly.

I've got to say, I find the reaction of some folks pretty baffling on this issue. Over the past 3 years, I have done a lot of wormhole PVP, and the only time I have ever camped a POS FF is when we are invading, and we almost *never* get a fight once it has gotten to that point. I just don't see the large scale POS docking point camping happening. I don't think people are really thinking this through, and considering the difference circumstances between a POS and a station.

[Durzel]

I'd hazard a guess that's because the sort of fights you're getting at that level involve either throwing caps around, fighting on links, blobbing sieged capitals in sites that can't go anywhere, etc.

There's a lot of people who sit and watch people cloaked at a POS, people who have perhaps either set up a drag bubble on the exit they think they're going to use, or waiting for them to warp to an anomaly they've already probed out previously - just looking for an opportunistic kill or perhaps an escalation. For those people suddenly not being able to actually see who is online because they're docked is going to completely change their way of playing.

You could make the argument that while you're docked using the station-in-all-but-name services your ship is moored up rather than actually disappearing but I suspect that would create just as much headaches for CCP as refitting T3s in space apparently does.

[Mashie Saldana]

You could make the argument that while you're docked using the station-in-all-but-name services your ship is moored up rather than actually disappearing but I suspect that would create just as much headaches for CCP as refitting T3s in space apparently does.

The mooring idea has already been thrown around by the devs for supercaps.

[Cue1*]

There's a lot of people who sit and watch people cloaked at a POS, people who have perhaps either set up a drag bubble on the exit they think they're going to use, or waiting for them to warp to an anomaly they've already probed out previously - just looking for an opportunistic kill or perhaps an escalation. For those people suddenly not being able to actually see who is online because they're docked is going to completely change their way of playing.

I'd say I spend about 50% of my time sitting at hostile POSs waiting on people to do stuff. It's also how I determine weather or not to pick fights.

[Nax]

I've got to say, I find the reaction of some folks pretty baffling on this issue. Over the past 3 years, I have done a lot of wormhole PVP, and the only time I have ever camped a POS FF is when we are invading, and we almost *never* get a fight once it has gotten to that point. I just don't see the large scale POS docking point camping happening. I don't think people are really thinking this through, and considering the difference circumstances between a POS and a station.

Aren't these POS changes going to affect people living in low and null as well? It seems as though the proposed changes will make POS easier to rape cage, easier to bump people out of, easier to snipe at their undock, easier to cyno ships right on their undock?

Wont these POS changes make it almost impossible for people to evac or even self destruct their assets once you siege their POS? What is your opinion on that?

[Ampoliros]

Do you not think there is something nomadic about only being able to have a POS in w-space? Some have argued that even that is too much...

Most people don't really use them nomadically, but yeah?

I think broadly speaking aside from the T3 subsystem issue and not enough granularity in CHA/SMA access permissions (i.e. on a per user, per CHA/SMA basis) - which is arguably a corp management issue than a POS one - that POSes in w-space are pretty much ok.

I don't subscribe to the argument that POSes in w-space should be as comfortable and feature-packed as stations. It isn't that onerous to crash your static to get an empire exit to ~do shit~, if you're living in a C6 with C6 with limited/sporadic/unreliable k-space access well them's the breaks I'm afraid. People having to go to empire to refit their T3* means chances to catch those people.

They should absolutely be as comfortable (ie, easy to use on a day to day basis) as a station; they should be reasonably feature packed if you're willing to make the tradeoffs in fitting/fuel/defenses, with some obvious restrictions. I wouldn't want medclones in w-space, i wouldn't want unlimited docking, and I wouldn't want insurance access or anything too weird- FW, bounties, NeX store (lol), etc. I could see reasoned arguments against jump clones. I don't really see much of an argument against things like (local) market or contracts access; at worst, they're quality of life features.

Having been in c6 space for quite some time, i'm pretty cool with not being connected to empire regularly; I've got alts if i miss flying around in empire for some reason. It's just about having reasonable features for the POS system.

* How often does this actually happen in practice anyway - since rigs can't be removed it's not like you can flip-flop between completely different builds without gimping yourself anyway. I can count on one hand the number of times I've stripped a T3 ship I'd previously fitted instead of just buying another hull + rigs + modules for whichever purpose I need to fill suddenly.

I don't ever really refit my t3s either, but having to assemble new ones in k-space is a bit dumb.

[Korenchkin]

I too like spying on people in their POS. WH Voyeurism ftw.

Aren't these POS changes going to affect people living in low and null as well?

No-one cares about those dudes (seeing as this is a w-space thread )

[Madner Kami]

I too like spying on people in their POS. WH Voyeurism ftw.

Aren't these POS changes going to affect people living in low and null as well?

No-one cares about those dudes (seeing as this is a w-space thread )

While this here is about w-space, the POS-systems are the same, as are many mechanics and hence he got an interesting point there. I don't really see a lot of low/nullers in any thread about this theme at all, which is kinda odd, because they neither speak for nor against these changes. I wonder where exactly that difference in sentiment comes from and the only differences I actually see, are, that you do have vast access to stations/outposts in null and low, which already have all these features and problems, hence making this not a big deal for them (and no local).