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Thread: [W-Space] general discussion

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    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    [W-Space] general discussion

    The W-space thread has always had issues with clutter, people discussing things that vaguely link to some kind of combat, but it ends up a page long discussion instead of talking about battle reports. Seems to make sense to have a topic for WH people to discuss WH stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourFiftyFour View Post
    Anyone read the section on POS redesign in the CSM minutes?


    I'm a little iffy about it. A lot iffy actually. What do you all think?
    I'm outright against it. Moving a POS? Putting them up everywhere? The limit of putting a POS only on a moon makes sense, it's balanced. For all the things that are wrong with the POS system, the limit of being on only moons might be the only thing that was right from the start. I understand that it would be pretty cool for K-space for these things, but even in 0.0 a POS that can go anywhere to use as a staging point leaves any defender just shit outta luck.

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    I am the 99.99998% Tyrus Tenebros's Avatar
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    you know for all the derping about how being 151km from another fleet means you are virtually guaranteed to immediately be probed, warped to, and anally violated, the concern about not being able to find a POS because it's not a moon is a bit misplaced methinks.
    Last edited by Tyrus Tenebros; August 10 2012 at 06:55:18 PM.
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    Madner Kami's Avatar
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    I'll quote myself from another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Madner Kami View Post
    My 2cents about it (thanks @ Zeppelin for the TL;DR-recap)

    • Remove Forcefield - add docking module/mooring module(miniforcefield-ish)
    Eh... Yeah... No thanks. Larger ships would become idiotically vulnerable at POSes, both after and before docking. Sure, the POS grants some degree of protection, but unless they introduce fast-locking anti-frig weaponry or an alpha-protection field around the POS, I can foresee me not undocking or trying to dock that Orca with 1 to 3 days worth of production in it. I do not want the problems from NPC-stations (e.g. station blocking warp, predictable exit-vector, docking delay, station blocking cloaking attempts by size) translated into <0.4-, 0.0- or, even worse, no-local w-space-POSes. Docking and Undocking are a deathtrap under these circumstances.

    • CCP Greyscale said that they wanted to allow them to be anchored just about anywhere.
    • if there would be a one starbase per grid limit, and CCP said no.
    Yeah um, looks nice on paper, but no thanks (especially if non-friendly POSes can be anchored on the same grid). Look guys, while 0.0 at least has the virtue of some superficial area control (predictable and protectable access via stargates, jump ranges, cynoblockers) and can respond in large numbers realistically and relatively easy, w-space will be fucked really hard (lowsec is apparently hardly interesting enough, to warrant an invasion). The best and probably only realistic way we can deny intruders planting their POS instantly and buying some advance-warning time, is by occupying every moon with a POS, because wormhole-jump mechanics and some (gladly) lesser known-quirks about it and OV-reaction speed, make it really hard to catch a covert-ops hauler, if the pilot knows his/her business at all.
    And while the deeper classes might produce sufficient ISK to warrant a permanent presence of a sizeable force of pilots, the lower end classes need every minute of delay they can get. I think I can count the number of C1-4s which have more then a squad full of pilots in permanent presence on one hand, because the other folks in those corps/alliances need other money-sources to sustain them. And please, CCP, spare me the squatter and not-to-be-permanent blabla about w-space. This is not how your game works for us, especially since the only other way of denying invaders raising a POS is by miniblob-blocking wormholes (by ships or cans, to bump and decloak covert-ops) and having probes in space 24/7, which, you know, kinda demands a permanent presence...

    • CCP is looking into defensive modules that would have firing arcs
    As long as it works like the guns on ships, I am fine with that (pairing or trippling single guns to cover the entire ship). If not, please think about this again and repeat this procedure, till you decide to make it like @ ships. POS-defences don't really need another variant of "Blaster Battery"-syndrome.

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    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus Tenebros View Post
    you know for all the derping about how being 151km from another fleet means you are virtually guaranteed to immediately be probed, warped to, and anally violated, the concern about not being able to find a POS because it's not a moon is a bit misplaced methinks.
    It's got nothing to do with being able to locate a POS without probes and everything to do with being able to deny your enemy a staging area.

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    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Didn't they say something about removing the force field? Thus it being a super safe staging pos, is not an option. Or am I smoking crack again?

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    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Didn't they say something about removing the force field? Thus it being a super safe staging pos, is not an option. Or am I smoking crack again?
    They did, but they said something about a force field mod specifically for staging.

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    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    As long as the only people allowed into the force field are members of the same alliance. Right now if your in a null coalition, every pos for ten regions is a nice staging spot. Dumb as fuck.

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    Smuggo's Avatar
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    TBH POS really just need to be a bit easier to put up (no dragging stupid fucking tiny little boxes around while zoomed right out please), have individual member space allocations in main storage mods, be able to open cans in a CHA, refit T3s, and make it easier to configure roles (though that's more a corp interface thing). Otherwise I'm pretty fine with them as they are ATM.


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    Ophichius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Didn't they say something about removing the force field? Thus it being a super safe staging pos, is not an option. Or am I smoking crack again?
    They did, but they said something about a force field mod specifically for staging.
    Keep in mind that FF strengths can be scaled if it becomes a mod. If the FF strength gets cranked down to maybe half a million to a million EHP or so, it's not a super-invincible staging bubble anymore, while still providing a decent shelter for stopovers. (inb4 capital blobs will instapop FFs)

    -O
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    Orar Ironfist's Avatar
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    As much as it'll suck to try and block staging points in wh space now, isn't the point they are going towards being that they no longer want FortressDelve-esque systems? That you won't be able to totally lock people out now because they could just throw up a staging pos at a safe sounds p good to me. More pvp in the end (You can say NO THAT MEANS MOAR STRUCTURE GRINDING HURRRR, but if more pvp is what you want just leave them up perhaps?)
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    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    My favourite thing about pos when they are online. EUTZ POSmod honour club we are here
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    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orar Ironfist View Post
    As much as it'll suck to try and block staging points in wh space now, isn't the point they are going towards being that they no longer want FortressDelve-esque systems? That you won't be able to totally lock people out now because they could just throw up a staging pos at a safe sounds p good to me. More pvp in the end (You can say NO THAT MEANS MOAR STRUCTURE GRINDING HURRRR, but if more pvp is what you want just leave them up perhaps?)
    Yes, please continue to force the small guys to leave W-space leaving only the large corps. All for great pvp amirite?

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    In before someone places a POS off grid and then just extends the grid so the POS is now on grid. Would make destroying C1 residents a breeze, just erect 2 to 3 POSes in safety barely off grid then after extending the grid have them start firing at the resident's POS.

    And no, I'm not a fan of the idea of POSes everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    TBH POS really just need to be a bit easier to put up (no dragging stupid fucking tiny little boxes around while zoomed right out please), have individual member space allocations in main storage mods, be able to open cans in a CHA, refit T3s, and make it easier to configure roles (though that's more a corp interface thing). Otherwise I'm pretty fine with them as they are ATM.
    +1

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    Leviathan's Avatar
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    anchoring a pos next to an enemy pos would be handy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xanral View Post
    In before someone places a POS off grid and then just extends the grid so the POS is now on grid. Would make destroying C1 residents a breeze, just erect 2 to 3 POSes in safety barely off grid then after extending the grid have them start firing at the resident's POS.

    And no, I'm not a fan of the idea of POSes everywhere.
    Can't do that, that's not how grid manipulation works. The target POS would be in a separate grid, and you can't force grids to merge, only push the grid boundaries really close to whatever object (in this case the target POS) is holding the other grid open.

    -O
    I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those Thukkers, that way I wouldn't have to have any goddamn stupid useless conversations with anybody.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Orar Ironfist View Post
    As much as it'll suck to try and block staging points in wh space now, isn't the point they are going towards being that they no longer want FortressDelve-esque systems? That you won't be able to totally lock people out now because they could just throw up a staging pos at a safe sounds p good to me. More pvp in the end (You can say NO THAT MEANS MOAR STRUCTURE GRINDING HURRRR, but if more pvp is what you want just leave them up perhaps?)
    Yes, please continue to force the small guys to leave W-space leaving only the large corps. All for great pvp amirite?

    From reading of the minutes and some things I think I've heard CSM talking about, I think the idea is that you can jam a bunch of these together. So, maybe you wont' be able to deny someone having a staging area, but are they going to want to come at your clusterfuck of deathstars anymore than the ones you probably have salted around the moons of your current hole? And they're not even close to implementing this stuff anyways, so I doubt this will be the death of your play style.

    Regarding FF. I think the idea of having a mod for the FF is to provide some flexibility. If you can drop these and pick them up quickly, maybe there are some applications where it won't be necessary... like high sec for example?

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    Donor AmaNutin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cap Mal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Orar Ironfist View Post
    As much as it'll suck to try and block staging points in wh space now, isn't the point they are going towards being that they no longer want FortressDelve-esque systems? That you won't be able to totally lock people out now because they could just throw up a staging pos at a safe sounds p good to me. More pvp in the end (You can say NO THAT MEANS MOAR STRUCTURE GRINDING HURRRR, but if more pvp is what you want just leave them up perhaps?)
    Yes, please continue to force the small guys to leave W-space leaving only the large corps. All for great pvp amirite?

    From reading of the minutes and some things I think I've heard CSM talking about, I think the idea is that you can jam a bunch of these together. So, maybe you wont' be able to deny someone having a staging area, but are they going to want to come at your clusterfuck of deathstars anymore than the ones you probably have salted around the moons of your current hole? And they're not even close to implementing this stuff anyways, so I doubt this will be the death of your play style.

    Regarding FF. I think the idea of having a mod for the FF is to provide some flexibility. If you can drop these and pick them up quickly, maybe there are some applications where it won't be necessary... like high sec for example?
    An issue about this idea...: assuming the only way to be successfully defended was to have multiple POS/Starbases on grid, how can a small corporation or alliance afford the fuel costs for each? Also, depends on the sizes, if there is variation like the small/med/large POS.
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    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmaNutin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cap Mal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Orar Ironfist View Post
    As much as it'll suck to try and block staging points in wh space now, isn't the point they are going towards being that they no longer want FortressDelve-esque systems? That you won't be able to totally lock people out now because they could just throw up a staging pos at a safe sounds p good to me. More pvp in the end (You can say NO THAT MEANS MOAR STRUCTURE GRINDING HURRRR, but if more pvp is what you want just leave them up perhaps?)
    Yes, please continue to force the small guys to leave W-space leaving only the large corps. All for great pvp amirite?

    From reading of the minutes and some things I think I've heard CSM talking about, I think the idea is that you can jam a bunch of these together. So, maybe you wont' be able to deny someone having a staging area, but are they going to want to come at your clusterfuck of deathstars anymore than the ones you probably have salted around the moons of your current hole? And they're not even close to implementing this stuff anyways, so I doubt this will be the death of your play style.

    Regarding FF. I think the idea of having a mod for the FF is to provide some flexibility. If you can drop these and pick them up quickly, maybe there are some applications where it won't be necessary... like high sec for example?
    An issue about this idea...: assuming the only way to be successfully defended was to have multiple POS/Starbases on grid, how can a small corporation or alliance afford the fuel costs for each? Also, depends on the sizes, if there is variation like the small/med/large POS.
    A lot of small corps run full POS coverage if they're in a C5+, so ISK isn't such a big issue. Remember this is the WH thread so even a small corp in a C5 brings in on the upwards of 120m an hour or so. The issue is that the small corps can't sit in 3 different WHs rolling a static to bring in multiple dreads. They also usually lack the TZ coverage to attempt hole control, so the only real way to keep someone from kicking you out is to have full POS coverage or pray that you have more capitals than they can bring in and hire mercs for subcap.

    As an FC, I'll gladly take on any of the deathstars out there if I've got 5 dreads to eat it with(2 holes, 6 capitals, one triage, the rest dreads). I don't think you can make something deathstary enough to deter someone who's only goal is to kick people out of their WHs for the loot.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    TBH POS really just need to be a bit easier to put up (no dragging stupid fucking tiny little boxes around while zoomed right out please), have individual member space allocations in main storage mods, be able to open cans in a CHA, refit T3s, and make it easier to configure roles (though that's more a corp interface thing). Otherwise I'm pretty fine with them as they are ATM.
    +1
    +1 although...

    POS industry and inventory management (refining, reactions, assembly arrays and CHA interactions) could use quite a lot of love as well.

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