Circumcision (without consent)

[kzig]

Under what circumstances, if any, should circumcision be lawful without the consent of the individual concerned?

This has been the subject of an interesting court case in Germany recently, and seems to have become a political issue as a result:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18909640

In relation to the above, should any distinction be made between male and female circumcision? If so, why?

I am not particularly well informed on this issue and would prefer to see what everyone else has to say before I post any of my own thoughts.

[Joshua Foiritain]

Being circumcised is awesome. (Assuming its done in a hospital by a doctor that doesnt fuck shit up of course) I was circumcised at 16 or 17 if i recall correctly and would recommend it to everyone.

I have no idea what female circumcision means in civilized countries, i've only heard of it being used in places like Africa where if i recall correctly didnt really serve much of a purpose and generally just ended up disfiguring women.

[kzig]

Please elaborate - why would you recommend it?

[Rudolf Miller]

Not everyone would say that's a good thing.

The 'looks better' argument is a matter of personal and partner preference. 'Easier to clean' is a matter of not being a total slob.

As an American circumsized from birth, I'm left with feelings of regret not knowing how my junk was going to be like if left untouched. It's a regret no man should have to think about, so there's no reason it shouldn't be left for adulthood to decide on.

[kzig]

In your view, do the advantages you've listed justify circumcision (at the request of one's parents) within a week of birth?

[Irrelephant]

Please elaborate - why would you recommend it?

Because theres only upsides? It looks better, is easier to clean and desensitizes your unit.

I remember stumbling a site where the desensitizing got problematic later on for some guys. To the point where they try all kind of weird shit to get some sort of foreskin back.

[NoirAvlaa]

Please elaborate - why would you recommend it?

Because theres only upsides? It looks better, is easier to clean and desensitizes your unit.

Edit: Actually there is one downside, during the operation there was a hot intern that watched the procedure. It was kinda cold in there, i did not impress

Fuck, I had the same experience. Maybe they do it on purpose... :s

[NoirAvlaa]

Not everyone would say that's a good thing.

The 'looks better' argument is a matter of personal and partner preference. 'Easier to clean' is a matter of not being a total slob.

As an American circumsized from birth, I'm left with feelings of regret not knowing how my junk was going to be like if left untouched. It's a regret no man should have to think about, so there's no reason it shouldn't be left for adulthood to decide on.

Except having it done as an adult hurts like hell for 2 months afterwards, then leaves a clear "circumcised area" that's notice-able. But now sex is much better (for me at least). There's also higher chance of losing all sensation, becoming perma-flacid and having it look actually deformed (instead of the aforementioned which isn't actually bad, just notice-able) when having it done as an adult, as I was informed multiple times by various doctors/nurses before I got mine done.

[Joshua Foiritain]

Not everyone would say that's a good thing.

The 'looks better' argument is a matter of personal and partner preference. 'Easier to clean' is a matter of not being a total slob.

As an American circumsized from birth, I'm left with feelings of regret not knowing how my junk was going to be like if left untouched. It's a regret no man should have to think about, so there's no reason it shouldn't be left for adulthood to decide on.

Well i've never met anyone who preferred the ant-eater over the space-rocket look but sure, its matter of preference. Its easier to clean because instead of pull foreskin back, rinse cleaning becomes do nothing because regular showers take care of it right away.

Doing it at birth would have saved pain, hassle and embarrassment.

In your view, do the advantages you've listed justify circumcision (at the request of one's parents) within a week of birth?

If its possible to do this without (an increased chance at) complications then i really don't see the need to outlaw it. On the other hand circumcision at birth is an important part of the religious indoctrination process and for that reason id be more then happy to see it outlawed.

I guess it balances out to "i don't really care". I'm happy to be circumcised, which at the end of the day is largely irrelevant because if i had not been circumcised i would not have known the difference and would have been perfectly happy as well.

Please elaborate - why would you recommend it?

Because theres only upsides? It looks better, is easier to clean and desensitizes your unit.

I remember stumbling a site where the desensitizing got problematic later on for some guys. To the point where they try all kind of weird shit to get some sort of foreskin back.

How would getting the foreskin back fix that problem? Apart from that im hard pressed to see how desensitizing can be a problem, unless it desensitizes to a point where it doesn't feel anything but that sounds physically impossible.

Regardless i doubt this is a common problem as it was not mentioned when i got circumcised. (which would be required by law as we have socialist healthcare )

[indi]

Not everyone would say that's a good thing.

The 'looks better' argument is a matter of personal and partner preference. 'Easier to clean' is a matter of not being a total slob.

As an American circumsized from birth, I'm left with feelings of regret not knowing how my junk was going to be like if left untouched. It's a regret no man should have to think about, so there's no reason it shouldn't be left for adulthood to decide on.

Well i've never met anyone who preferred the ant-eater over the space-rocket look but sure, its matter of preference. Its easier to clean because instead of pull foreskin back, rinse cleaning becomes do nothing because regular showers take care of it right away.

Not going to touch this debate, but I prefer the "ant eater" over your "space rocket". Not to the point where I would not have sex with someone who was circumsized, but I do prefer it. Doubt I"m the only one.

Edit: touching it sideways anyway. Female circumcision serves no purpose (cleanliness, whatever) and will not solve existing medical problems (foreskin too tight - there is no such equivalent afaik). No matter what shape it takes (ranges from just ceremonially cutting into the labia to removing clitoris, etc), it's essentially mutilation. Apparently the idea is that if you stop enjoying sex, you will be less tempted to be a horrid adulteress.

[Smuggo]

IMO parents should not be allowed to circumcise their children unless for some pressing medical reason. They should let them decide as adults and if they buy into their parents' preferred doctrine of witchcraft then presumably they will do so.

Female circumcision as far as I understand just causes a lot of pain for the woman and is primarily used a form of subjugation so is utterly immoral.

[Cue1*]

Not going to touch this debate, but I prefer the "ant eater" over your "space rocket". Not to the point where I would not have sex with someone who was circumsized, but I do prefer it. Doubt I"m the only one.

Edit: touching it sideways anyway. Female circumcision serves no purpose (cleanliness, whatever) and will not solve existing medical problems (foreskin too tight - there is no such equivalent afaik). No matter what shape it takes (ranges from just ceremonially cutting into the labia to removing clitoris, etc), it's essentially mutilation. Apparently the idea is that if you stop enjoying sex, you will be less tempted to be a horrid adulteress.

Why exactly do you prefer the ant eater?

As far as female circumcision, there's a western version that is done purely for aesthetics, but otherwise, yes it's just disfigurement and disgusting.

[Fuggin]

I was circumsized as a baby and glad I was. I had my son circumsized when he was born. I will let him decide on his own son.

My dad, however, isn't circumsized and laments the fact that he wasn't circumsized at birth. Now at 73, he has to be circumcized for medical reasons. He's not thrilled about it.

[Roam]

We had a great big debate about this in the day, and as I recall it became rather trollish and flamey near the end.

Suffice to say, while I respect everyone's own opinion on the matter, and am happy to know that Joshua is content with his mutilated cock, this doesn't count for everyone and the arguments being brought forth in the great circumcision debate infuriate me for being utter bullshit.

I've read up a lot on this subject as a result of a big debate with a Jewish friend of mine (and the FHC thread back in the days), and let's stop a couple of misconception in their tracks before the thread really gets going:

1) Circumcised does not equal cleaner. A lot of people don't know that there has been a long marketing campaign in the US (which affected other countries as well) to advocate circumcision because it was seen as more devout and less likely to induce lust feelings in young men. One of their fabricated marketing slogans was the concept of uncut penises being filthy, have cheese build up (which is one of those arguments that just piss me off, since it's technically true, but only if the individual in question hasn't showered in literally a month. Not really applicable in western society) and other such hilarious things regarding hygiene. It's utter bullshit.

2) The "it's more attractive" angle. Again, subject of the marketing campaign which proved to be quite successful, because many american women have never seen an uncut penis and grow up thinking it's bad and unclean. Here in the netherlands (which strangely enough is where Joshua says to live), the opposite is true. It's a simple matter of what the norm is in your country. Here, being circumcised is the minority, so a normal penis is considered more attractive generally. (not accounting for subjective taste, of course)

3) The "it's less sensitive". Wait, this is actually true but why the fuck are you listing that as a pro? O_o I kinda like me some sex, and it's been measured that you lose a majority of your sensitivity and therefore pleasure. Why would you want to enjoy sex less again?

4) Not a point mentioned above, but one I've heard often. Namely that it is "harmless". I initially thought this too until I watched a video where a physician explains a circumcision. At first I thought that "aww, the baby doesn't even seem to feel a thing, he's just asleep". Then the doctor explained "That's the baby going into anaphylactic shock due to its brain being overloaded by pain and shutting down. It's too young to cry out, so the brain just shuts down non-vital functions as it assumes it is being attacked."

In any event, watch the penn and teller bullshit episode on circumcision.

  Spoiler:

[elmicker]

I'm going to tattoo CUNT to my firstborn's forehead because a sky pony told me to and also because it's cleaner and more attractive and there's nearly no medical risks.

[zergl]

fake edit: Beaten by Roamy's wall'o'text

It looks better

YMMV (thanks indi) and it's quite likely a culturally acquired taste and adhering to the norm (Judaism, Islam and the snip-happy USA). I've never heard any such preferences around here from either gender.

is easier to clean

Siding with Rudolf, this is a ridiculous argument. It might hold some water in some third world shitholes (like the USA? SCNR ), but in an industrialized nation the personal hygiene aspect is an absolute non-issue unless you're a total slob in which case the foreskin should be the least of your problems.

and desensitizes your unit.

I fail to see how this is a positive aspect of circumcision. Assuming you can hold off ejaculating long enough to satisfy the missus without circumcision, I'd assume that it would be preferable to have more sensation as opposed to less.

I don't know if you were sexually active (not counting masturbation) before you got cut, but I've read numerous reports of circumcised adults around the web stating that in a before/after comparison sex was described as worse afterwards.

[indi]

Why exactly do you prefer the ant eater?

I just do - it's like explaining why I like dark chocolate and dislike white chocolate. Matter of taste. Roam is right, it's the norm here and what I consider 'normal'. Like I said earlier, I don't find it important enough to let it stop me from having sex with someone who is circumcised. In that way it is not like white chocolate, which I would possibly eat if I were starving but would hate even then.

vOv Roam made a good post.

[FourFiftyFour]

1. Bullshit or not, having no foreskin makes for easy cleaning.

2. It is considered more attractive in the United States which is where I live.

3. Sex still feels pretty awesome to me.

4. So? I dont remember it so I don't care about it. It is as if it never happened.


Whats not to like?

[Larkonis Trassler]

I've seen this thread before... Spoilered because of :srs:

  Spoiler:

Americans and your circumcision for the sake of it... all because of Mr Kellog. It's more aesthetically pleasing simply because that's what you're used to. Having an invasive procedure which carries with it some pretty nasty risks (even when done at an early age) simply to tidy things up simply smacks as wrong. Regardless, I can't think of many situations where I have to spend a great deal of time looking at my unerect penis. Nor can I think of many where a partner would be or should be.

The whole religious side to it is an anachronism, a hang up from the days when people dwelled in hot, sandy shitheaps (see also; eating pork, burying your dead before sun down).

Cleanliness? If you're not a slob then it's not too much of a drama to pull it back in the shower and have a little scrub. Even when I've gone days without a real wash it's no great shakes to give it a wipe with a bit of cloth or a wet wipe, plus there's few scents more manly than a three day accumulation of knob cheese behind your helmet.

Without a foreskin masturbation would be that little bit harder (read: a lot). Having to supply additional fluids to ease the process rather than just yanking one's slightly sweaty foreskin over one's bellend.

As for sensitivity... I struggle to see how denying yourself pleasurable sensations is an advantage unless you are a permanent badged up member of the Johny-Come-Early club.

Uncut=Superior

It's a procedure that, in this day and age, should only be carried out for medical reasons and should, otherwise, be held in the same regard in civilised nations as female circumcision.

[Sacul]

As a Jew who is considered pure by Orthodox standards (both parents families are jews) i still thank my parents for NOT circumziging me and letting the decision up to me aswell as not indoctrinating me with religious bullshit.
If Joshua likes it fine, he was old enough, making the decision for a baby is just evil and retarded in my opinion (lol at the people who say no to female circumziging and its ok to do it to a male) and the Penn and Teller ep Roam posted says why.