[Devblog] CSM Meeting Minutes - Summer 2012

[Nartek]

The problem isn't supercaps boosting off grid, or T3's boosting off grid, or CS's boosting off grid. The problem is boosting off grid.....

Boost on grid=100% of bonus.
Boost off grid=33% of bonus.
Boost in POS (not sure this is even possible to activate the module inside a POS shield)=0% of bonus.

So you're whining about a mechanic that you apparently have dick all experience of?

Still don't see why people are intent on making it 300% harder for the small organized gang to fight against the larger less organised one?

First of all, who is whining? I came up with a system that provides great incentives for placing ships in harms way. To, you know... Command and shit.
Second of all, yeah, never even attempted to see if folks were getting a link bonus from inside a POS shield. That's way to fucking ridiculous for words, and, as pussy as pussy gets.
Third, if you're so god damned organized, then you're going to do pretty good vs unorganized regardless. If you're so organized that you want to use some pussy assed maneuver to replay some heroic 300-esque movie versus some imaginary horde... well, last time I checked, there's a sign at Thermopylae.

TLDR: STOP BEING A FUCKING PUSSY AND RISK THAT SHIT, YO. If everyone but your "SUPAPRO" ass is so fucking retarded, you can pop them while they're slapping their chest and emptying their drool cups. You shouldn't even need Command Links. And if you want to be a pussy, then you should get pussified bonuses.

[Glyken Touchon]

IIRC, the fleet stuff takes a big chunk of the engine's time to work out before it's sent to players. Would a shift to grid-only improve this?

[Daneel Trevize]

I think implementation considerations should play second fiddle to actual gameplay.
Also the whole 'char in a box' thing and related possible improvements could probably sort such player skills/ship stats things rather than changing mechanics.

[Durzel]

They could perhaps offset the loss of off grid links with a change in how boosts are applied? e.g. instead of one booster per squad you could have everyone in squad contributing if they have link(s) fitted and active, with the highest bonus applied in cases where 2 or more people are trying to boost the same type (i.e. they wouldn't all contribute in a compound fashion, but would act as backups if running the same link(s))

In that way boosts would automatically failover to the next senior player in the event of someone with a link being popped, so it wouldn't be a case of "kill CS, squad loses 30% efficiency" or whatever.

[Zeekar]

Because it is via a broken mechanic that will make better balance and more interesting game play available without it?

Please elaborate....

Virtue alt probing and safe spot bonus pushing are, in my opinion of course, a couple of the most boring conceivable 'combat' activities you can do in EVE PvP. By forcing them on grid you start opening the door for changes to make flying bonus ships more interesting and out of the hands of alts (some sort of dynamic boosting scheme? idk), you open the door to a nerf to probing in combat because it no longer baselined by the requirement to be able to catch off-grid boosters (sniping buff?), and it is even an instant buff for [true] soloing. It just seems like the current mechanic ties CCPs hands to a lot of crappy crappy eve, and the sooner they nerf that aspect they may be able to expand in desirable directions eventually.

Going in a fight without probers will not happen even if you remove off grid boosters. They are simply too useful.

[Tsubutai]

Virtue alt probing and safe spot bonus pushing are, in my opinion of course, a couple of the most boring conceivable 'combat' activities you can do in EVE PvP. By forcing them on grid you start opening the door for changes to make flying bonus ships more interesting and out of the hands of alts (some sort of dynamic boosting scheme? idk), you open the door to a nerf to probing in combat because it no longer baselined by the requirement to be able to catch off-grid boosters (sniping buff?), and it is even an instant buff for [true] soloing. It just seems like the current mechanic ties CCPs hands to a lot of crappy crappy eve, and the sooner they nerf that aspect they may be able to expand in desirable directions eventually.

Actually, probing down people's link alts is both funny and profitable, and can be a good way of breaking hostile gangs if you can't get through their reps with dps alone. Boosting is an intrinsically boring activity, but that's true for both on- and off-grid boosting: in both cases, your job boils down to switching on links and then not dying. There's nothing particularly skillful or challenging about it in either case. I agree that a more dynamic or involved boosting system (possibly involving targeted buffs rather than magic bonuses for your entire fleet) would probably improve the game and make flying a linkship much more interesting, but making bonuses on-grid only isn't a prerequisite for that since it'd involve a wholesale reworking of the way gang bonuses work in any event. Finally, what killed sniping was on-grid probing, which requires essentially no investment of player skill, SP, or ISK and is a very different animal to scanning things (such as off-grid boosters) down in safespots, which requires all three to at least some extent if you want to do it well.

[Rynnik]

Going in a fight without probers will not happen even if you remove off grid boosters. They are simply too useful.

I miscommunicated if that is what you took away from my post. I certainly didn't say probing would no longer have a role in combat.

Actually, probing down people's link alts is both funny and profitable, and can be a good way of breaking hostile gangs if you can't get through their reps with dps alone. Boosting is an intrinsically boring activity, but that's true for both on- and off-grid boosting: in both cases, your job boils down to switching on links and then not dying. There's nothing particularly skillful or challenging about it in either case. I agree that a more dynamic or involved boosting system (possibly involving targeted buffs rather than magic bonuses for your entire fleet) would probably improve the game and make flying a linkship much more interesting, but making bonuses on-grid only isn't a prerequisite for that since it'd involve a wholesale reworking of the way gang bonuses work in any event. Finally, what killed sniping was on-grid probing, which requires essentially no investment of player skill, SP, or ISK and is a very different animal to scanning things (such as off-grid boosters) down in safespots, which requires all three to at least some extent if you want to do it well.

All I am saying is that moving boosts on-grid opens the door for future changes to bonuses and removes one possible complication to changing probing and that is, in my opinion, a good thing overall. They were just two examples off the top of my head. So I guess you agree with me?

[Tsubutai]

All I am saying is that moving boosts on-grid opens the door for future changes to bonuses and removes one possible complication to changing probing and that is, in my opinion, a good thing overall. They were just two examples off the top of my head. So I guess you agree with me?

No, I don't. A better boosting system that requires some level of player skill in applying bonuses would be good. Keeping existing mechanics but just saying on grid only, lol is bad because as others have mentioned, it confers a massively disproportionate advantage to larger gangs.

reworked boosting system that relies (more) heavily on player skill > current system > just removing leadership skills altogether and refunding the sp > current system with links on-grid only

[Warmenhoven]

First of all, who is whining?....You shouldn't even need Command Links. And if you want to be a pussy, then you should get pussified bonuses.

Everyone's whining, it's FHC remember? And what would you know about what's needed?? Sounds like you're buthurt that theres a different solution than n+1, stop being bad.

All I am saying is that moving boosts on-grid opens the door for future changes to bonuses and removes one possible complication to changing probing and that is, in my opinion, a good thing overall. They were just two examples off the top of my head. So I guess you agree with me?

No, I don't. A better boosting system that requires some level of player skill in applying bonuses would be good. Keeping existing mechanics but just saying on grid only, lol is bad because as others have mentioned, it confers a massively disproportionate advantage to larger gangs.

reworked boosting system that relies (more) heavily on player skill > current system > just removing leadership skills altogether and refunding the sp > current system with links on-grid only

Nerfing something into the ground and then waiting for CCP to do a massive iteration on it is going to be painful, much rather a small change now and still give us an option to level the playing field.

[Rynnik]

reworked boosting system that relies (more) heavily on player skill > just removing leadership skills altogether and refunding the sp > current system with links on-grid only > current system

FYP.

[orcane]

Can we stop with the "off-grid boosts level the playing field" nonsense already?

[Zeekar]

Can we stop with the "off-grid boosts level the playing field" nonsense already?

They do, deal with it.

[Rynnik]

Can we stop with the "off-grid boosts level the playing field" nonsense already?

They do, deal with it.

Then level the field with on-grid boosts instead. Or don't.

[orcane]

Can we stop with the "off-grid boosts level the playing field" nonsense already?

They do, deal with it.

That's rich coming from someone acting like off-grid boosting is totally balanced and if they remove that the world will end.

Off-grid boosting has been broken five years ago and it got more broken with T3 ships. Just because it's available to everyone and you can counter it with very specific setups doesn't make it balanced. They finally plan to remove it. Deal with it.

[AmaNutin]

Not even being brought up in the thread: all the rorquals and orcas this will make for killmails (or for sale).

[Zeekar]

Can we stop with the "off-grid boosts level the playing field" nonsense already?

They do, deal with it.

That's rich coming from someone acting like off-grid boosting is totally balanced and if they remove that the world will end.

Off-grid boosting has been broken five years ago and it got more broken with T3 ships. Just because it's available to everyone and you can counter it with very specific setups doesn't make it balanced. They finally plan to remove it. Deal with it.

I will. Just saying it nerfs small groups more then large groups. Its exactly what eve needs...

[Joe Appleby]

Not even being brought up in the thread: all the rorquals and orcas this will make for killmails (or for sale).

I did mention that. Briefly. And as a carebear (just bought a mack for some solo mining) I absolutely support this. Also this provides ample opportunity to kill Rorquals for any competent gang catching average renter bears.

[Sponk]

I did mention that. Briefly. And as a carebear (just bought a mack for some solo mining) I absolutely support this. Also this provides ample opportunity to kill Rorquals for any competent gang catching average renter bears.

I noticed Seleene suggested a capital mining barge in the csm minutes. Maybe it would be OK for a Rorq to sit in a grav site if it had company.

[raiden55]

I noticed Seleene suggested a capital mining barge in the csm minutes. Maybe it would be OK for a Rorq to sit in a grav site if it had company.

nah he was asking for a new capital ship to help for ring mining ^^

[Joe Appleby]

I did mention that. Briefly. And as a carebear (just bought a mack for some solo mining) I absolutely support this. Also this provides ample opportunity to kill Rorquals for any competent gang catching average renter bears.

I noticed Seleene suggested a capital mining barge in the csm minutes. Maybe it would be OK for a Rorq to sit in a grav site if it had company.

While the idea sounds nice, what would be the purpose of such a beast? Hulks mine quick enough as it is, huge belts in matters of hours with decent boosts and competent haulers / Orca in place. Leave the Hulk as the top miner and instead work on surrounding support. Orca, Rorqual, how about an ORE probing ship? Not to replace any of the other cov ops probers, but something more useful to a mining prober. Core launcher, core probe strength bonus or some such and range bonus on survey scanners so one gets a full account of the ore present. Maybe make that the t2 version of the new mining frigate.