Where did i say that info links are fine and don't need fixing?Originally Posted by Marlona Sky
They obviously need that, but they also need to be available to all command ships.
Where did i say that info links are fine and don't need fixing?
They obviously need that, but they also need to be available to all command ships.
Increasing sensor strength is pretty useful against dishonour drones
Make isk with PICountries do not exist where I am from. The discovery of the Higgs boson led to limitless power, the elimination of poverty and Kit-Kats for everyone. It is a communist chocolate hellhole and I'm here to stop it ever happening.
The Great Tracking Nerf v0.1
My fav ECM alternative
Am on page 25, just posting to say Two Step is a whiney-annoying-wont-shut-up bitch at this point
"He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Tor. Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!"
What if all the Command ships had Damnation-like bonuses as Durzel stated?
I already made this point earlier. The bonuses from command ships are very large. If you take out a Fleet or Wing Commander before your opponent does it drastically dictates how the fight unfolds in a way no other ship loss would.
And I think it depends on the size of the engagement for how important a command ship is relative to other ships on the field, in small-med size gangs I'd say Logi and recons are just as important if not more. In larger fights mayhaps you have a point. In very large fleet fights the links would be spread around super caps and sub-caps would be getting alpha'd regardless of bonuses.
Fix one problem at a time. Got the boosters on grid first, if they drop like flies then you fix them.
I actually worked out the numbers on this a Damnation with 10 boosted Logis repping will tank 42.5k DPS while having a 367k buffer. Assuming two 100 man fleets with 10% logi and 5% non-DPS support the remaining 85 pilots would need to do 500 DPS to break the tank that's real DPS after adjusting for falloff, tracking and Sig size (265m for a Damnation). Throw in an AB and X-Instinct and incoming DPS will reduce further. Which is why in the time I flew a Damnation in 0.0 with Razor I never lost one.
You fought bads.
I think the way to go about it would be to give command ships better boosting boni, better tanks and less offensive power, while giving T3's the ability to boost off-grid with less effect (plus the option to run more than its racial specific links) than it's command ship counterpart - and then nerf the whole 'unprobable booster thing' into the ground somehow. People should be rewarded for putting 400m BC-hulls on grid for a fight and NOT rewarded (as much) for parking a T3 alt on afk for the duration of the engagement... even if you (once in a blue moon and provided the guy isn't checking for probes at any time within the 5 minutes it takes) can scan it down with virtues. As for the whole "OMG ongrid boosting will make people blob MORE!"-argument, I think it's a crock of shit. People are already blobbing up for the tiniest of kills - and forcing gangs to bring a command ship instead isn't gonna change that in any significant way.
Redistributing the link boni properly between races makes good sense though (gallente link boni are ridiculous compared to the others), and/or only letting the links affect hulls of the corresponding race could be an idea to limit the effect of links on gang composition?
Also, while I appreciate the boosting alts' ability allowing small gangs to take on hordes of retards, the scale and spectrum of fights people are bringing links for is getting fucking ridiculous. I have droves of link alts in my address book because everyone and their fckin mother are bringing them to a fight. I have a guy in there who consistently won't fight with his nano'ed out rail rax without those uber-skirmish and 40+wtf point range links being firmly in place... Exactly how is that helping ANY people getting good fites (except for the thorax guy!)?
M8, medium rails need all the help they can get, they're useless.
Yes, they are - and they DO need help... but a pilot without the testicular fortitude to fight a fckin t1 frigate without having a 44km point, speed and agility boni does NOT, if you ask me...
True but I actually think the "soloer" with a links alt won't be massively impacted if he's just after solo fights. It's fairly straightforward to sit your command ship just off grid, then once you have a tackle on your target you warp the CS to some distant point on that grid and you're still getting the bonuses and there's basically fuck all your opponent can do.Also, while I appreciate the boosting alts' ability allowing small gangs to take on hordes of retards, the scale and spectrum of fights people are bringing links for is getting fucking ridiculous. I have droves of link alts in my address book because everyone and their fckin mother are bringing them to a fight. I have a guy in there who consistently won't fight with his nano'ed out rail rax without those uber-skirmish and 40+wtf point range links being firmly in place... Exactly how is that helping ANY people getting good fites (except for the thorax guy!
Switching the bonuses between CS and T3s should be the first step. Then CCP can see how it pans out, whether more people start to use fleet CS etc... and go from there. I think making a radical change like stopping off-grid boosting before testing a much simpler and more logical balance fix isn't very wise.
Last edited by Smuggo; August 6 2012 at 11:38:05 AM.
Yes - but then at least that ship is "in" the game. Not floating like a tiny spec in space that's next to impossible to find or floating inside the safety of a POS shield. It's being put at risk of getting shat all over by the rivalling gang I might be tackling for - and that's how it should be, if you ask me. You put your shit on the line and give the other guy a shot at killing and looting it. So should the other guy - or at least pay a price in terms of reduced efficiency, if he's averse to taking risks...
Ur probably right - but for all I care, they can put everything related to boosting alts in a can, douse it with gasoline and put a match to it... and I couldnt' give two shits about how it affects people.
What about a significantly degraded off-grid deal; so it's available, but not quite the same delicious option?
I.E. Bonus provided by CS links is degraded to 33% compared to being on grid.
Then if you risk it, you get the bonus.
Surely just switching the bonuses would achieve this to some extent as CS is more useful on-grid than off, and T3 is more useful off than on, so if you switch the bonuses, you effectively achieve a similar effect to what you are describing.
This still doesn't bridge the gap in disparity between a CS on grid which is vulnerable to dying in a fire vs a ship that is somewhere in space, perhaps even in a POS shield, which is invulnerable unless you've brought a guy along whose sole job it is to find them (and hope he doesn't notice you probing and cloak/change safes).Surely just switching the bonuses would achieve this to some extent as CS is more useful on-grid than off, and T3 is more useful off than on, so if you switch the bonuses, you effectively achieve a similar effect to what you are describing.
With virtues you probe them surprisingly fast.
Of course not, and I'd be quite happy to take a significant hit on T3's ability to provide bonuses. It is ridiculous the CS has a lesser bonus than a T3. I'd say a fair compromise would be to give CS a max 20% bonus to link effectiveness (so 4% per level) and make the T3 half that. This would nerf the max link effectiveness, buff CA links a little, nerf T3 links a lot and I'd hope lead to improved uptake of CS.This still doesn't bridge the gap in disparity between a CS on grid which is vulnerable to dying in a fire vs a ship that is somewhere in space, perhaps even in a POS shield, which is invulnerable unless you've brought a guy along whose sole job it is to find them (and hope he doesn't notice you probing and cloak/change safes).Surely just switching the bonuses would achieve this to some extent as CS is more useful on-grid than off, and T3 is more useful off than on, so if you switch the bonuses, you effectively achieve a similar effect to what you are describing.
Before making major gameplay changes, some numbers tinkering should be the first port of call and then if that has little effect more radical solutions can be considered.
A fair compromise would be to remove off-grid links completely because the whole idea is fucking retarded. Getting a boost from something nowhere near the fight, and possibly completely invulnerable inside a POS needs to stop, I can't believe people are trying to argue that it should exist in any form. I'm sorry if people's dedicated link alts will no longer be useful unless they're adapted for use on grid but shit happens.
I'm not talking about "fixing" Strat Cruisers vs Command Ships though. That's a horse of a different color, regardless of it being on-grid or not.
It should not be "Tech 2 Command Ship needs to be on grid, while Tech 3 Strat Cruiser can be out in fuck-off land lalalalala-ing about."
If you're going to implement a compromise to the undesired (I.E. the bit they addressed, which is... why the fuck are they off-grid to begin with), then that's the effect that needs to be addressed. If you want to fix the disparity between T2 and T3's, then that should be addressed, but in a different fashion.
Doesn't mean the changes cannot happen at the same time; however, if the behaviour is decided to be "against the flavor of the game", then it really doesn't matter what hull you do it in, you're still doing it. Which means you can forbid it outright, or provide enough of a drawback for continuing on that you obtain the desired behaviour.
TLDR:
If you want to fix the disparity between T3 and CS's, then fix it.
If you want to correct a trend in behaviour, then fix that.
Don't try to fix them both with some supercalafragalistic change that doesn't change shit, just changes what people buy and train on their alts.
Why does it need to stop any more than any other commonly used tactic?
This. I've recorded a tutorial on probing them from scratch and it took ~70 seconds with me holding down push to talk & getting lagged by the FPS drop. If I wasn't recording and holding down my PTT key, I can do it in 40 seconds. If I have a rough idea of where they are, it drops to 30 seconds and if I have a really good idea, 15 seconds.
Swapping the Command Ship & Tech 3 Bonuses around would be a good start. Combine that with stopping boosting from POSes, and you would be golden, at least for a first iteration.
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