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Thread: Valve pulls a Sony

  1. #1
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Valve pulls a Sony

    New subscriber agreement for Steam contains waiver of class-action lawsuits, just like Sony after their PSN data breach.

    SECTION 12 CONTAINS A BINDING ARBITRATION AGREEMENT AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER. IT AFFECTS YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS. PLEASE READ IT. IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES, SOME OR ALL OF SECTION 12 MIGHT NOT APPLY TO YOU.
    12. DISPUTE RESOLUTION/BINDING ARBITRATION/CLASS ACTION WAIVER.

    Most user concerns can be resolved by use of our Steam support site at https://support.steampowered.com/. If we are unable to resolve your concerns and a dispute remains between you and Valve, this Section explains how we agree to resolve it.

    YOU AND VALVE AGREE TO RESOLVE ALL DISPUTES AND CLAIMS BETWEEN US IN INDIVIDUAL BINDING ARBITRATION. THAT INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, ANY CLAIMS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO: (i) ANY ASPECT OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US; (ii) THIS AGREEMENT; OR (iii) YOUR USE OF STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT OR THE SOFTWARE. IT APPLIES REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH CLAIMS ARE BASED IN CONTRACT, TORT, STATUTE, FRAUD, UNFAIR COMPETITION, MISREPRESENTATION OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY.

    However, this Section does not apply to the following types of claims or disputes, which you or Valve may bring in any court with jurisdiction: (i) claims of infringement or other misuse of intellectual property rights, including such claims seeking injunctive relief; and (ii) claims related to or arising from any alleged unauthorized use, piracy or theft.

    This Section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you.

    An arbitration is a proceeding before a neutral arbitrator, instead of before a judge or jury. Arbitration is less formal than a lawsuit in court, and provides more limited discovery. It follows different rules than court proceedings, and is subject to very limited review by courts. The arbitrator will issue a written decision and provide a statement of reasons if requested by either party. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU AND VALVE ARE GIVING UP THE RIGHT TO SUE IN COURT AND TO HAVE A TRIAL BEFORE A JUDGE OR JURY.

    You and Valve agree to make reasonable, good faith efforts to informally resolve any dispute before initiating arbitration. A party who intends to seek arbitration must first send the other a written notice that describes the nature and basis of the claim or dispute and sets forth the relief sought. If you and Valve do not reach an agreement to resolve that claim or dispute within 30 days after the notice is received, you or Valve may commence an arbitration. Written notice to Valve must be sent via postal mail to: ATTN: Arbitration Notice, Valve Corporation, P.O. Box 1688, Bellevue, WA 98004.

    The Federal Arbitration Act applies to this Section. The arbitration will be governed by the Commercial Arbitration Rules of the American Arbitration Association (“AAA”) and, where applicable, the AAA’s Supplementary Procedures for Consumer Related Disputes, as modified by this Agreement, both of which are available at http://www.adr.org. The arbitrator is bound by the terms of this Agreement.

    The AAA will administer the arbitration. It may be conducted through the submission of documents, by phone, or in person in the county where you live or at another mutually agreed location.

    If you seek $10,000 or less, Valve agrees to reimburse your filing fee and your share of the arbitration costs, including your share of arbitrator compensation, at the conclusion of the proceeding, unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. Valve agrees not to seek its attorneys' fees or costs in arbitration unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. If you seek more than $10,000, the arbitration costs, including arbitrator compensation, will be split between you and Valve according to the AAA Commercial Arbitration Rules and the AAA’s Supplementary Procedures for Consumer Related Disputes, if applicable.

    YOU AND VALVE AGREE NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION OR COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION, EVEN IF AAA’s PROCEDURES OR RULES WOULD OTHERWISE ALLOW ONE. THE ARBITRATOR MAY AWARD RELIEF ONLY IN FAVOR OF THE INDIVIDUAL PARTY SEEKING RELIEF AND ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THAT PARTY’S INDIVIDUAL CLAIM. You and Valve also agree not to seek to combine any action or arbitration with any other action or arbitration without the consent of all parties to this Agreement and all other actions or arbitrations.

    If the agreement in this Section not to bring or participate in a class or representative action, private attorney general action or collective arbitration should be found illegal or unenforceable, you and Valve agree that it shall not be severable, that this entire Section shall be unenforceable and any claim or dispute would be resolved in court and not in collective arbitration.

    Notwithstanding this Section, you have the right to litigate any dispute in small claims court, if all the requirements of the small claims court, including any limitations on jurisdiction and the amount at issue in the dispute, are satisfied.

    This Section 12 shall apply to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law. If the laws of your jurisdiction prohibit the application of some or all of the provisions of this Section notwithstanding Section 11 (Applicable Law/Jurisdiction), such provisions will not apply to you.
    Nice one, Valve. Coincidentally linked to the Ubisoft debacle? Buying retail from now on.

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  2. #2
    I am the 99.99998% Tyrus Tenebros's Avatar
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    Pretty sure clauses like that are unenforcable anyways so it doesn't really matter.
    I tried to be cool and all I got was a lousy warning about my sig being too big.

  3. #3
    Varcaus's Avatar
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    inb4 fan bois

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    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus Tenebros View Post
    Pretty sure clauses like that are unenforcable anyways so it doesn't really matter.
    They are as you cant remove a basic right or get around the law via a contract (for example, I cant contract you to kill someone and then you use that as a 'get out of jail' defense in your murder trial). The bigger question for existing customers is can this invalidate the whole contract as they have added potentially illegal clauses. (Taking the murdering example above, if I contract you to pick up my washing for $4million and you agree to it, and I use a clause in it to adjust it so you have to murder someone to get the money, well.. you do the math)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus Tenebros View Post
    Pretty sure clauses like that are unenforcable anyways so it doesn't really matter.
    Not enforceable in Australia.

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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    New subscriber agreement for Steam contains waiver of class-action lawsuits, just like Sony after their PSN data breach.

    SECTION 12 CONTAINS A BINDING ARBITRATION AGREEMENT AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER. IT AFFECTS YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS. PLEASE READ IT. IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES, SOME OR ALL OF SECTION 12 MIGHT NOT APPLY TO YOU.
    However, this Section does not apply to the following types of claims or disputes, which you or Valve may bring in any court with jurisdiction: (i) claims of infringement or other misuse of intellectual property rights, including such claims seeking injunctive relief; and (ii) claims related to or arising from any alleged unauthorized use, piracy or theft.
    Nice one, Valve. Coincidentally linked to the Ubisoft debacle? Buying retail from now on.
    ~snip~ because of long

    On closer reading, I bolded the part I think invalidates their protection from a class action lawsuit due to Ubisoft style cock-ups. Identity theft and credit card fraud due to security holes are theft. They may have put that language in the EULA to allow them to chase down ebil pirates but that sword cuts both ways. It probably also is completely unenforceable (even liability waivers can be gotten around).

    In any event, dick move Valve.

  7. #7
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    On the question of whether it is enforceable, I will do two things:

    1. Contact the state Attorney General's office inquiring about this agreement's (and Sony's) legality.
    2. Send a letter to US Senator Amy Klobuchar's office, inquiring about this agreement's (and Sony's) legality. She's a former county attorney, so she has an excellent grasp of law. (edit: On closer inspection, she co-sponsored PIPA, so hmm...)

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  8. #8
    I am the 99.99998% Tyrus Tenebros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus Tenebros View Post
    Pretty sure clauses like that are unenforcable anyways so it doesn't really matter.
    They are as you cant remove a basic right or get around the law via a contract (for example, I cant contract you to kill someone and then you use that as a 'get out of jail' defense in your murder trial). The bigger question for existing customers is can this invalidate the whole contract as they have added potentially illegal clauses. (Taking the murdering example above, if I contract you to pick up my washing for $4million and you agree to it, and I use a clause in it to adjust it so you have to murder someone to get the money, well.. you do the math)
    From the limited knowledge of a few business law and contracting specific courses, It'll probably be found to be severable (at least in the United States)
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Buying retail from now on.
    Good luck finding a game that doesn't have Steam integration.

  10. #10
    I am the 99.99998% Tyrus Tenebros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus Tenebros View Post
    Pretty sure clauses like that are unenforcable anyways so it doesn't really matter.
    They are as you cant remove a basic right or get around the law via a contract (for example, I cant contract you to kill someone and then you use that as a 'get out of jail' defense in your murder trial). The bigger question for existing customers is can this invalidate the whole contract as they have added potentially illegal clauses. (Taking the murdering example above, if I contract you to pick up my washing for $4million and you agree to it, and I use a clause in it to adjust it so you have to murder someone to get the money, well.. you do the math)
    From the limited knowledge of a few business law and contracting specific courses, It'll probably be found to be severable (at least in the United States)

    edit: damn, the rare split-double-post.
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  11. #11
    Ędward's Avatar
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    This would be for the USA only as most people are picking up on.

    In civilised countries that still have a functioning rule of law (as opposed to rule of corp) and consumer rights this is just so much bog wrap.
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  12. #12
    Varcaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ędward View Post
    This would be for the USA only as most people are picking up on.

    In civilised countries that still have a functioning rule of law (as opposed to rule of corp) and consumer rights this is just so much bog wrap.
    Are you dumb or just cant read the thread?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    On the question of whether it is enforceable, I will do two things:

    1. Contact the state Attorney General's office inquiring about this agreement's (and Sony's) legality.
    2. Send a letter to US Senator Amy Klobuchar's office, inquiring about this agreement's (and Sony's) legality. She's a former county attorney, so she has an excellent grasp of law. (edit: On closer inspection, she co-sponsored PIPA, so hmm...)

    Unfortunately, you would be wasting your time. This is completely legal in the good ol' U.S. of A. thanks to our supreme court.

    http://www.sfgate.com/business/artic...on-2374082.php

    In a resounding victory for businesses, the Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that a company can require its customers or employees to arbitrate disputes individually rather than joining forces in a class action.

    The 5-4 decision overturned a 2005 California Supreme Court ruling allowing customers who signed arbitration agreements to form a class with other buyers who had similar grievances, even if the arbitration clause prohibited class actions.

    A lawyer for the plaintiffs, a Southern California couple contesting a $30.22 cell-phone fee from AT&T, called the ruling "a crushing blow to American consumers." AT&T said the court recognized arbitration as a speedy and effective procedure that often helps consumers.
    This is why it only applies to 'merukans. They can only fuck us legally.
    meh

  14. #14

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    I get the feeling even having the clause there is going to do more harm than good to them. Brb, seeing if my lawyer can force them to make my steam games work without steam, or pirating if he can't (so pirating, and I'll even feel bad because of that "thanks for buying our shit" message at the start of SPAZ)

    Other interesting news would be valve's turnover figures around the release of this agreement, I want to see how much they lose, 'cos I never liked the damn thing anyway, only got it because so many idiots (sorry, game studios) signed up to it exclusively.
    The above post is probably derp, and you might want to ignore it.


  15. #15
    I am the 99.99998% Tyrus Tenebros's Avatar
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    Hmm that 2011 decision is a bag of dicks.

    Note that it overturns a ruling from 2005 so until recently this didn't apply to the USA either.
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  16. #16
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus Tenebros View Post
    Hmm that 2011 decision is a bag of dicks.

    Note that it overturns a ruling from 2005 so until recently this didn't apply to the USA either.
    Didn't we have a thread on just how broken the American legal system is in general? What happened to it?
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus Tenebros View Post
    Hmm that 2011 decision is a bag of dicks.

    Note that it overturns a ruling from 2005 so until recently this didn't apply to the USA either.
    Didn't we have a thread on just how broken the American legal system is in general? What happened to it?
    Probably a topic for a different subforum, but basically, the political metagame in the US is the supreme court. You get your side in and stack it (currently favoring republicans), you get the law bent in your favor.
    meh

  18. #18
    Donor Navigator Six's Avatar
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    My impression of class-action lawsuits from reading a bunch of stories about them is that they

    1. Don't generally result in meaningful damages to their targets
    2. Don't generally result in meaningful payouts for the class members
    3. Just make a bunch of lawyers rich

    So that doesn't seem like that big a deal (and this is coincidentally Valve's rationale behind limiting them). On the non-class-action front, it doesn't seem like you're prevented from suing post-arbitration, and Valve is apparently paying the arbitration costs, which seems like a pretty nice move to me.

    So not that big a deal methinks.
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  19. #19
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Simmons View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Buying retail from now on.
    Good luck finding a game that doesn't have Steam integration.
    This.

    I'm just pirating their shit because most multiplayer steam games suck dicks anyway.

  20. #20
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    What happens if you don't accept this ?

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