Rape Jokes

[Lallante]

Mostly going to play devils advocate here.

If you go that route you can replace rape jokes in your argument with:

- paedophile jokes
- murder jokes
- nationality jokes
- racist jokes
- minority jokes

Because they can all offend somebody deeply.

I said it wasn't about "offending" someone but rather hurting them. Criticising someones race or whatever is unlikely to hurt them even if it offends them unless, for example, it reminds them of a racially motivated attack on them in the past or some other trauma. The number of people this applies to will be low.

As many as 1 in 5 women in the UK are the victim of a rape or sexual assault at some point in their life (actually 1 in 5 was the number who have at the time of survey been the victime, the lifetime figure is therefore much higher). Its not some tiny minority who are affected so the risk of hurting someone is high.

The same arguement might be made of paedophilic abuse - it affects enough people that in a given audience there isnt a vanishingly small chance that someone will be hurt by it, but its a much lower chance than rape so the arguement is much weaker.

Its about balance here, not absolutes.

So your argument boils down to there is a chance of hurting 10% of the population so you shouldn't do it? In that we should immediately drop jokes about sexual orientation since there is pretty much the same chance of hurting somebody as with rape victims.
The catch is simple. We expect people to be adults and to deal with assholes. You cant allow yourself to be hurt by idiots making jokes and this goes for rape victims as well. If you do you will go insane.
As you said its about balance and the simple balance is that there is simply too many assholes in the world for you to be hurt by every single one.

Are you deliberately ignoring the balance of my arguement or just dense? The psychological trauma associated with being raped or sexually assaulted is ENORMOUS. Its a whole different ballgame from feeling discriminated against or bullied.

I think you must never have had to talk to or support a rape victim or you wouldnt spout this "tell the victims to be adults" "they shouldn't allow themselves to be hurt by it" offensive bullshit. I don't get annoyed on the internet often, but the ignorance displayed in your post is putting me pretty close.

I sadly know a few and the ones that are coping the best are the ones who dont let themselves be affected by idiots. It is something VERY VERY deep and tragic in someone life and they deserve all the support they need but sadly a part of life is dealing with assholes.
As for your friend, she needs counselling.

She has been undergoing regular counselling for 4 years and has got to the point where most times, she doent need to leave the room she just internally withdraws and goes quiet. Probably only I notice it. I say most times because she, like most people, is not a robot and cannot precisely control her emotional reaction to what is one of the most severe traumas a person can experience - sometimes it just hits her.

I can tell you that if we were having a conversation in real life and someone said something along the lines of "rape victims should just deal with it / get over it" she would be out of the room in tears faster than you could blink. If you think that's ok, just her problem, then fair play to you, but I think that would make him an inconsiderate and unpleasant cunt and you can bet your ass he wont be invited to anything im organising again.

Society massively underplays the prevelence and severity of rape. And by society unfortunately I do mean men. Very few women make these jokes. Its ingrained and unconscious. I know lots of otherwise perfectly liberal, right on kind of guys whose initial reaction when they hear about something like this is to question the girls' story. (I mean seriously, that's your "go to" response to hearing one of your friends has been raped?). Society is fucked up on this point and supporting these kinds of jokes just reinforces that view.

[Zeekar]

Im not saying they should just deal with it/get over it. I'm saying that rape jokes are most of the time inappropriate and i tend to avoid them ( i did crack a couple in a only guy company ) right because of that fact that sadly there is a high % of woman that are raped and its a traumatic experience. I am also saying that they all need our support and compassion so they can get to the level (if they can, not all can) where they can deal assholes who dont care about their feelings and their past experiences and sadly those people will always exist.

[Tarminic]

I have a hard time not seeing a double-standard here. Would any of us say the same about PTSD victims here? "Hey man, so I decided to play BF3 really loud while you're in the room at last night's party, you need to just HTFU and get over it."

[Lallante]

Im not saying they should just deal with it/get over it. I'm saying that rape jokes are most of the time inappropriate and i tend to avoid them ( i did crack a couple in a only guy company ) right because of that fact that sadly there is a high % of woman that are raped and its a traumatic experience. I am also saying that they all need our support and compassion so they can get to the level (if they can, not all can) where they can deal assholes who dont care about their feelings and their past experiences and sadly those people will always exist.

That much we can definitely agree on. In an ideal world people can make these jokes and noone is hurt by them. But going back to OP point 6., in that world, noone would find the jokes funny because its the potential for harm that is their entire point.

[Tarminic]

Im not saying they should just deal with it/get over it. I'm saying that rape jokes are most of the time inappropriate and i tend to avoid them ( i did crack a couple in a only guy company ) right because of that fact that sadly there is a high % of woman that are raped and its a traumatic experience. I am also saying that they all need our support and compassion so they can get to the level (if they can, not all can) where they can deal assholes who dont care about their feelings and their past experiences and sadly those people will always exist.

I can agree with this too. I just don't think we should give everyone a "free pass" on this kind of humor.

[Zeekar]

Im not saying they should just deal with it/get over it. I'm saying that rape jokes are most of the time inappropriate and i tend to avoid them ( i did crack a couple in a only guy company ) right because of that fact that sadly there is a high % of woman that are raped and its a traumatic experience. I am also saying that they all need our support and compassion so they can get to the level (if they can, not all can) where they can deal assholes who dont care about their feelings and their past experiences and sadly those people will always exist.

That much we can definitely agree on. In an ideal world people can make these jokes and noone is hurt by them. But going back to OP point 6., in that world, noone would find the jokes funny because its the potential for harm that is their entire point.

You're contradicting yourself in your last line. In an ideal world people can make jokes and nobody is hurt by them and since its an ideal world everybody knows nobody is hurt by them so they will crack them.

In our world people know that they can cause potential harm so they wont crack them. Well the sensible ones at least.

[Lallante]

Im not saying they should just deal with it/get over it. I'm saying that rape jokes are most of the time inappropriate and i tend to avoid them ( i did crack a couple in a only guy company ) right because of that fact that sadly there is a high % of woman that are raped and its a traumatic experience. I am also saying that they all need our support and compassion so they can get to the level (if they can, not all can) where they can deal assholes who dont care about their feelings and their past experiences and sadly those people will always exist.

That much we can definitely agree on. In an ideal world people can make these jokes and noone is hurt by them. But going back to OP point 6., in that world, noone would find the jokes funny because its the potential for harm that is their entire point.

You're contradicting yourself in your last line. In an ideal world people can make jokes and nobody is hurt by them and since its an ideal world everybody knows nobody is hurt by them so they will crack them.

In our world people know that they can cause potential harm so they wont crack them. Well the sensible ones at least.

The people who do find rape jokes funny, fundamentally find them funny because they might hurt/offend others. Its called "shock humour". If noone was ever hurt or offended and such jokes were commonplace then they would have no shock value, and they aren't funny in any other sense (that I can see or have heard others claiming - feel free to disagree, I'd be curious).

[LoudSpeakly]

I actually had to Google this topic, never seen one told before, or perhaps not registered any as being rape jokes.

Context and delivery are everything with humor, sensitive topics just place a limiting factor on the where and how they're made. Bad comedians will attempt one and it will be awful for all involved. Good comedians will avoid the area entirely. Great comedians will only tangentally reference the issue and get away with it.

[Hel OWeen]

In short: There are two components to the issue that are being ignored. First is the situational nature of comedy: ANY comic would agree that you have to play and know your audience. For example: it's commonly agreed that 9/11 jokes at a 9/11 memorial service with survivors would be in bad taste, or cancer jokes at a charity event for terminally ill children. I think we can all agree on this point.

No, we can't. And that's basically due to a similar experience like Lall described in his OP, just the reverse. He wrote:

I used to subscribe to usual neckbeard manifesto of "nothing is offlimits in comedy" "if you cant take a joke, fuck off". About 2 years ago, due to firsthand experiences, I did a 180.

I had also an enlightening moment, not two, but ca. twenty years ago. It also dealt about jokes. Mine was about jokes about handicapped people. A group of people, including a handicapped one. One telling a joke about handicapped people, all others go :silence: *cough*. The first to speak up was the handicapped guy, asking "WTF is up with you guys? Would you please stop treating me like something special? Just treat me like anyone else, assholes."

This was an eye-opener for me. I guess the standard War games reference applies here: "The only winning move is not to play." You tell those jokes - someone is offended (which in my opinion is a special case of "being hurt"). You omit those jokes - someone else is offended. My suggestion: do like you would normally do. If you don't feel comfortable telling/listening to such jokes, don't do it to just please/impress someone else. If you're typically OK with telling/listening, then by all means do it.

[Lallante]

That's a good anecdote, but bear in mind the vast majority of people who have been handicapped most or all of their lives wont be traumatised by their handicap. It really is nbd for them. Its also (reasonably) clear from looking at your audience who is likely to be affected by the joke, to a degree anyway.

Its a bit different when you are talking about something that is almost always traumatising, like rape, and that is known to psychologically haunt many or most victims for long periods after the event. Its also something you usually -wont- know about someone unless you are very very close to them, and as I've noted, statistics are not on your side.

[KathDougans]

Society massively underplays the prevelence and severity of rape. And by society unfortunately I do mean men. Very few women make these jokes. Its ingrained and unconscious. I know lots of otherwise perfectly liberal, right on kind of guys whose initial reaction when they hear about something like this is to question the girls' story. (I mean seriously, that's your "go to" response to hearing one of your friends has been raped?). Society is fucked up on this point and supporting these kinds of jokes just reinforces that view.

It's not violent rape by a stranger, which is what a lot of people think of when they think of the word "rape", but in Scotland, there's a thing, in some parts of society anyway, where this sort of thing happens:

When you're a teenager in school, there's a lot of gossip and such, and things occurring on dates, at parties, and so on and so forth. Exaggerations and tall tales abound.

Anyway, when you're 13-14 or so, and interested in dating, but not really feeling interested in sex, you might get called "frigid" if you say you're not wanting to have sex.
If you go on a lot of dates, but don't sleep with anyone, you might get called a "cocktease".
If you're the last virgin in your year, then you might get called various names.
If, when you do decide you'd like to have sex, and you're not aroused by your partners clumsy fumblings, then again, you might get called "frigid".
If you actually say "i'm not enjoying this, would you mind stopping?" then again, there's names that you might get called.
In all of these things, the impression is created that it is your fault. It is Your Fault that you don't want to have sex, aren't turned on by clumsy ineptness, and your fault for not enjoying things.

And the idea that things are Your Fault is reinforced by events that may occur later in life.
Not wanting sex? then why are you wearing that? why are you dancing ? why are you wearing perfume ? It's Your Fault.
Not enjoying things? it's your fault again. Don't even think about saying "would you mind stopping?". That's your fault. You're supposed to enjoy it, or at least, say "could we try a different position?".

Some extremist people might say that all of those situations are "rape". That's debatable.

But it does create a situation where a woman is conditioned towards thinking that things are her fault, where having sex when you don't want to is the Least Bad Option.


And with rape jokes, and saying it's "their fault if they're offended", is more of the same.

[Nicholai Pestot]

I am also going to play devils advocate here, with a slightly different approach.

Three key points that are the basis of my argument:-

1. In absence of the rape there would be no harm. In absence of the joke their would still be harm. The harm caused by a rape victim hearing a rape joke is a result of the rape, not the joke.

2. It is unacceptable to hold someone responsible for the actions of someone they have never influenced.

3. If the teller of the joke is not aware of the history of someone hearing the joke, they are acting without intent to harm.



The teller of the joke does not intend to cause harm and is also not responsible for the harm caused. Without intent or responsibility, they have done nothing wrong.

[Lallante]

I am also going to play devils advocate here, with a slightly different approach.

Three key points that are the basis of my argument:-

1. In absence of the rape there would be no harm. In absence of the joke their would still be harm. The harm caused by a rape victim hearing a rape joke is a result of the rape, not the joke.

2. It is unacceptable to hold someone responsible for the actions of someone they have never influenced.

3. If the teller of the joke is not aware of the history of someone hearing the joke, they are acting without intent to harm.



The teller of the joke does not intend to cause harm and is also not responsible for the harm caused. Without intent or responsibility, they have done nothing wrong.

This is an interesting way to structure your arguement and I have an idea for how to tackle it but I'm out of time and have to run - back tomorrow.

[untilted]

one thing that comes into play with jokes are power relations. jokes (and humor) can be subversive as they put power relations in question, but they also can be used to reinforce the same relations.

a joke is the (symbolic) weapon of the powerless, the ones that are denied any other way to act. it can be the mockery during carneval aimed at the ones in power, but it also can be a way to cope with an unspeakable situation (e.g. antisemitism culminating in the shoah or an assault on ones own body in the most intimate way). a joke is a way to put distance between oneself and the "hard truth", it is a way to make things look less serious than they are. "you may take my life, but you won't take my wits" - regaining some sort of autonomy against the ones in power.

BUT these are specific kinds of jokes. they are spoken by the ones affected by this impasse.


more often jokes are of a different kind, they are the ones spoken from a position of power and privilege. they are still weapons, but this time they are aimed at the ones being powerless, to ridicule and trivialize their situation and to void any criticism ("hey, it IS funny. just suck it up and laugh!"). they still make things look less serious, but in a way that reinforces the current balance of power. it makes it easier to frame the ones criticizing as "oversensitive and humorless", any form of criticism of the imbalance of power can suddenly be labelled as "overreaction" - because "hey, it's just a joke, not to be taken serious!" - ignoring the ambiguity between the jape and the situation.

[Aramendel]

The teller of the joke does not intend to cause harm and is also not responsible for the harm caused. Without intent or responsibility, they have done nothing wrong.

Ignorance is no "free out of jail" card. There exists something called "criminal negligence". If you find these nice mushrooms in the forest, cook them for your friends and half of them die you will most definitely be judged having done something wrong.

Now, you could argue that in that case if you wouldn't have done anything there would be no harm. That is correct. However, you are incorrect that the person who tells a rape joke does not do any harm.
If someone suffered a knife wound would you go to him/her and squeeze the wound? No? Because that is exactly what you would do with a rape joke vs a victim. You are not responsible for the wound. Squeezing that area if there was no wound would do no harm. However, by squeezing when there is a wound you make it momentarily quite noticeably worse. Squeeze it often enough and you make it permanently worse. Even once might be too often if you introduce an infection.

[DevilDude]

*snip*

She has been undergoing regular counselling for 4 years and has got to the point where most times, she doent need to leave the room she just internally withdraws and goes quiet. Probably only I notice it. I say most times because she, like most people, is not a robot and cannot precisely control her emotional reaction to what is one of the most severe traumas a person can experience - sometimes it just hits her.

I can tell you that if we were having a conversation in real life and someone said something along the lines of "rape victims should just deal with it / get over it" she would be out of the room in tears faster than you could blink. If you think that's ok, just her problem, then fair play to you, but I think that would make him an inconsiderate and unpleasant cunt and you can bet your ass he wont be invited to anything im organising again.

Society massively underplays the prevelence and severity of rape. And by society unfortunately I do mean men. Very few women make these jokes. Its ingrained and unconscious. I know lots of otherwise perfectly liberal, right on kind of guys whose initial reaction when they hear about something like this is to question the girls' story. (I mean seriously, that's your "go to" response to hearing one of your friends has been raped?). Society is fucked up on this point and supporting these kinds of jokes just reinforces that view.

I would say that she needs better help if it's taken four years to achieve what you describe. Likely she's seeing a 'therapist' or 'psychologist' as opposed to an actual licensed psychiatrist yes? It sounds like the problems she has are the kind you have to combat with medication as well as 'words'. Not that I don't feel sorry for her, but more because she doesn't appear to be getting the kind of help she needs rather than that she has to deal with unpleasant social situations.

*snip*

The people who do find rape jokes funny, fundamentally find them funny because they might hurt/offend others. Its called "shock humour". If noone was ever hurt or offended and such jokes were commonplace then they would have no shock value, and they aren't funny in any other sense (that I can see or have heard others claiming - feel free to disagree, I'd be curious).

It's called dark humor, it's very different from shock humor, poop jokes might be shocking but rarely dark. Myself I have a very sardonic sense of humor I find sarcasm and irony funny, and there is irony even in the darkest things, often more so than in lighter subjects.

So maybe your friend has problems with certain kinds of humor, it's sad that she hasn't apparently hasn’t gotten the help she needs, but saying that everyone else should change to suit her isn’t particularly constructive either as it’s about as likely to happen as the rapture (hint: it’s not going to happen).

[Tarminic]

I am also going to play devils advocate here, with a slightly different approach.

Three key points that are the basis of my argument:-

1. In absence of the rape there would be no harm. In absence of the joke their would still be harm. The harm caused by a rape victim hearing a rape joke is a result of the rape, not the joke.

2. It is unacceptable to hold someone responsible for the actions of someone they have never influenced.

3. If the teller of the joke is not aware of the history of someone hearing the joke, they are acting without intent to harm.

The teller of the joke does not intend to cause harm and is also not responsible for the harm caused. Without intent or responsibility, they have done nothing wrong.

I do like the more formal way you have phrased this argument, though I don't strictly agree with it. Let's expand number one into one of four possible scenarios:

RT: Rape joke told, recipient has been raped (rape harm done, rape trigger harm done)
XT: Rape joke told, recipient has not been raped (no harm done)
RX: Rape joke not told, recipient has been raped (rape harm done)
XX: Rape joke not told, recipient has not been raped (no harm done)

So, there are two conditions in which you can guarantee that no additional harm will be done:
1. You know for a fact that all recipients have not been raped, therefore there is no risk of triggering
2. You will not tell a rape joke

In some instances, it's possible to know the Condition #1 is true, IE if you're out with a group of close friends. I would consider such instances to be a minority given the social stigma and highly personal nature of rape.

However, you are guaranteed to know whether Condition #2 is true, because you have control over whether you tell a rape joke or not.

[lubica]

I'd argue that the use various types of humour is situational, dirty jokes will be and always have been dirty, use at your own risk. Risk in this case being the social fallout suffered due to offended/indigntant persons in the vicinity.

That said:
A: Hey, wanna play a rape game?
B: No.
A: That's the spirit!

/beats a hasty retreat from this thread.

[Nicholai Pestot]

I am also going to play devils advocate here, with a slightly different approach.

Three key points that are the basis of my argument:-

1. In absence of the rape there would be no harm. In absence of the joke their would still be harm. The harm caused by a rape victim hearing a rape joke is a result of the rape, not the joke.

2. It is unacceptable to hold someone responsible for the actions of someone they have never influenced.

3. If the teller of the joke is not aware of the history of someone hearing the joke, they are acting without intent to harm.

The teller of the joke does not intend to cause harm and is also not responsible for the harm caused. Without intent or responsibility, they have done nothing wrong.

I do like the more formal way you have phrased this argument, though I don't strictly agree with it. Let's expand number one into one of four possible scenarios:

RT: Rape joke told, recipient has been raped (rape harm done, rape trigger harm done)
XT: Rape joke told, recipient has not been raped (no harm done)
RX: Rape joke not told, recipient has been raped (rape harm done)
XX: Rape joke not told, recipient has not been raped (no harm done)

So, there are two conditions in which you can guarantee that no additional harm will be done:
1. You know for a fact that all recipients have not been raped, therefore there is no risk of triggering
2. You will not tell a rape joke

In some instances, it's possible to know the Condition #1 is true, IE if you're out with a group of close friends. I would consider such instances to be a minority given the social stigma and highly personal nature of rape.

However, you are guaranteed to know whether Condition #2 is true, because you have control over whether you tell a rape joke or not.

Your counterpoint is missing the point. 1 is not about guaranteeing no harm will be done, it is about identifying who is responsible for the harm.

Having the ability to prevent harm that someone else is causing, does not make you responsible for that harm if you chose not to prevent it.

To use an example - if someone is shot and killed I am not responsible for it, just because I didn't knock them out of the way of the bullet.

In the same way, just because I have not made the choice to guarantee that nothing I say will ever cause someone to remember being raped, does not make me responsible for the harm of them remembering the rape. That harm was caused by the rapist.

[Aramendel]

That harm was caused by the rapist.

The point is that that is wrong.

The *initial* harm has been done by the rapist. But by telling the joke you increase that harm. It is the proverbial turning the knife in the wound.
The rapist is partially responsible for that additional harm, but so is the person who does it, even if it was unintentional.