Rape Jokes

[Tarminic]

just because I have not made the choice to guarantee that nothing I say will ever cause someone to remember being raped, does not make me responsible for the harm of them remembering the rape. That harm was caused by the rapist.

I think there has to be some point at which the joke-teller bears a degree of responsibility for causing additional emotional trauma. For example, what if you tell a rape joke knowing that the recipient bears emotional scars for being raped? I think the vast majority of individual would say that the joke-teller is responsible for triggering that trauma, even if he was not the rapist.

Conversely, if joke-teller believed (mistakenly) with 100% confidence that the recipient was not raped, the vast majority would say that he is not responsible.

The problem is that those two scenarios are very rare, and the vast majority of common scenarios are far murkier, and the larger the audience, the murkier it gets and the more likely that we're going to trigger someone. I think based on that we can assign some degree of responsibility to the joke-teller.

[whispous]

I only read the first page, so someone else might already have debated:

"jokes aren't meant to be taken seriously, people who get offended are looking to take offence"

Unfortunately that argument falls down when it comes to telling a joke that might remind someone of a harrowing experience. You can't use that reasoning because it falls down if the situation was, say, in this extreme case:

Making jokes about people dying in the twin towers in front of someone who escaped and lost a loved one in the experience.


With that example, it beyond doubt proves that rape jokes should not be made to an audience that are not expecting "vile shock" humor. (voluntarily going to a frankie boyle gig however...)

[Nicholai Pestot]

That harm was caused by the rapist.

The point is that that is wrong.

The *initial* harm has been done by the rapist. But by telling the joke you increase that harm. It is the proverbial turning the knife in the wound.
The rapist is partially responsible for that additional harm, but so is the person who does it, even if it was unintentional.

Unfortunately the universal application of that logic leads to people being partially responsible for their own rape by choosing to go out on their own at night. Or by choosing to wear provocative clothing, or by choosing to flirt. Even though it was unintentional, they still partially enabled the harm to happen.

I don't accept that.

Even if the victims actions contributed to the rape occurring, the harm is still wholly the responsibility of the rapist. Even if a joke causes someone to remember a rape, the harm is still fully the responsibility of the rapist.

[whispous]

While I agree that it is DEFINITELY NOT someone's FAULT they got raped "because of their clothes" etc, it seems foolish to not do what you can to protect yourself. You wouldn't wander around Coventry as a policeman without a stab vest "because it's not my fault if I get stabbed so why should I"

[Nicholai Pestot]

While I agree that it is DEFINITELY NOT someone's FAULT they got raped "because of their clothes" etc, it seems foolish to not do what you can to protect yourself. You wouldn't wander around Coventry as a policeman without a stab vest "because it's not my fault if I get stabbed so why should I"

But not wearing a vest doesn't make it the coppers fault if someone stabs him, does it. If someone cracks a joke in a pub about getting stabbed that the copper then hears and has a flashback to the pain of getting stabbed, its not the fault of the person cracking the joke.

We are getting a little off topic here.

[whispous]

I'm not saying that anything in any way makes it the victim's fault, I just wanted to point out that it's silly to not take available safety measures. I was addressing what you mentioned in passing above there, because it's a phrase/idea that gets bandied about too often without actually being thought about. (that idea being "it's not their fault that they dressed "sluttily")

[Nicholai Pestot]

I'm not saying that anything in any way makes it the victim's fault, I just wanted to point out that it's silly to not take available safety measures. I was addressing what you mentioned in passing above there, because it's a phrase/idea that gets bandied about too often without actually being thought about. (that idea being "it's not their fault that they dressed "sluttily")

It isn't.

People should be able to dress almost any way they choose, without fear of harm.


Edit - I'm not going to respond to this any further. Its off topic and should probably be the focus of another thread if you want to go further.

[Aramendel]

I'm not saying that anything in any way makes it the victim's fault, I just wanted to point out that it's silly to not take available safety measures. I was addressing what you mentioned in passing above there, because it's a phrase/idea that gets bandied about too often without actually being thought about. (that idea being "it's not their fault that they dressed "sluttily")

Nicholai Pestot already stated that the victims behavior can partially cause the rape ( Even if the victims actions contributed to the rape occurring... ), but his point isn't cause/effect but the fault. The victim acting "sexy" does not reduce the fault of the rapist. A crime doesn't get less bad if it is caused by stupidity.

It is actually a pretty good argument. It feels like it has a flaw, but I cannot yet see it. Need to tinker with it a bit.

[untilted]

I'm not saying that anything in any way makes it the victim's fault, I just wanted to point out that it's silly to not take available safety measures.

the problem is - what are "available safety measures" in the light of the following statistic?

• Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives.
[Violence against Women. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994]

paranoia?

[DevilDude]

I'm not saying that anything in any way makes it the victim's fault, I just wanted to point out that it's silly to not take available safety measures. I was addressing what you mentioned in passing above there, because it's a phrase/idea that gets bandied about too often without actually being thought about. (that idea being "it's not their fault that they dressed "sluttily")

It isn't.

People should be able to dress almost any way they choose, without fear of harm.


Edit - I'm not going to respond to this any further. Its off topic and should probably be the focus of another thread if you want to go further.

why then should people not be able to say what they like, without fear of reprisal for hurt feelings? that particular line of logic is a two edge sword.

[Nicholai Pestot]

but his point isn't cause/effect but the fault

I feel dumb for not stating it so elegantly in the first place.

Thank you.

I hope you can pick it apart, as I am arguing counter to my own feelings on the subject of rape jokes.

[Reed Tiburon]

"Don't be a dick" is probably a good rule of thumb.

If you go to a professional comedy show, you know what you're getting into, and if you know you can't take a joke on topic X, you shouldn't go, period. On the other hand, rape jokes in polite company are basically a never thing, as are racist jokes, dead baby jokes etc. Unless you know the people you're with pretty well, in which case do whatever you want.

My 2 cents

[DevilDude]

"Don't be a dick" is probably a good rule of thumb.

If you go to a professional comedy show, you know what you're getting into, and if you know you can't take a joke on topic X, you shouldn't go, period. On the other hand, rape jokes in polite company are basically a never thing, as are racist jokes, dead baby jokes etc. Unless you know the people you're with pretty well, in which case do whatever you want.

My 2 cents

yeah pretty much this.

[Alex Caine]

Tbh, I think it depends on the audience.

I too used to be "Everything is fair game in comedy", but a lot of women (understandably) get very upset at these. My wife for one, so I dont do it around her...
On the other hand, people should just be responsible and be able to judge their company properly. If you are surrounded by women you don't know, probably not cool. If it's your mates you've known for years, go for it.

So yeah, "don't be a dick" I think does indeed cover it.

[Aramendel]

I hope you can pick it apart, as I am arguing counter to my own feelings on the subject of rape jokes.

Okay. Let's try this one:

You stand next to a 3m deep swimming pool. You are perfectly healthy and a good swimmer. A man throws a girl in the swimming pool and runs away. The girl struggles and gurgles "Help! I cannot swim!". You could save her without any danger or inconvenience to yourself. You walk away.
This is a similar scenario to your "if someone is shot and killed I am not responsible for it, just because I didn't knock them out of the way of the bullet" example.

If the girl dies you wouldn't be accused of the murder of her. You didn't do it after all.

You would however be accused of failure to aid somebody in mortal peril. Here in Germany that can get you up to 1 year in jail. For that it does not matter who is responsible for her mortal peril. If you are there and are able to help you *have* to do it. If you make a decision not to that isn't the fault of the man who threw her in. He doesn't control what you do, that failure to act is completely your own.

In the case of rape jokes you could argue that you are not responsible for the trauma of the girl, however you are not blameless.
If you call a girl, which you know sensitive about her weight, "Hey fatty!" and she breaks out in tears you are responsible for her pain. Because you knew that that comment could cause her pain, but said it regardless. You made the decision. It would have caused you no harm in not saying it. If you were not really thinking about the reaction of the girl and just made it as thoughtless comment it is a less "evil" act, but then you are still guilty of not considering the feelings of the people you interact with. Which isn't exactly a positive thing.

tl'dr: Even "without intent or responsibility" the teller of rape joke has still done something wrong, namely not considering the feelings of the people he interacts with.

Basically:
- telling rape jokes in company where you think there is some chance of a victim being present: Asshole
- telling rape jokes without thinking about the possible effects: Inconsiderate Jerk

[cullnean]

humour in subjective non-shocker

[Tarminic]

why then should people not be able to say what they like, without fear of reprisal for hurt feelings? that particular line of logic is a two edge sword.

I don't think the two situations are interchangeable at all. One is being about being free from harm being perpetrated against you, the other is being free to say something you know will harm someone else.

Do you honestly believe that people should be allowed to say anything without suffering the social consequences of that speech?

[DevilDude]

why then should people not be able to say what they like, without fear of reprisal for hurt feelings? that particular line of logic is a two edge sword.

I don't think the two situations are interchangeable at all. One is being about being free from harm being perpetrated against you, the other is being free to say something you know will harm someone else.

Do you honestly believe that people should be allowed to say anything without suffering the social consequences of that speech?

not necessarily, but I don't think being a rape victim gives anyone extra rights. It comes down to my basic belief that one persons rights end where they impinge on another's. If just by entering the room your own issues curtail another persons rights to say what they will, something is fucking wrong and needs to be dealt with.

I certainly don't blame a rape victim, but I also don't blame a person who tells a dirty joke for someone else's reaction to it. Growing up I learned 'sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.' I consider that to be one of the basic prerequisites of functional adulthood. That isn't to say I have no sympathy for a rape victim, but I think that being completely undone by an off color joke is evidence that an individual is for lack of a better word broken, and needs therapy and possibly medication in order to mend their psyche.

[Nartek]

Is this the sexual assault thread? Is this where I can finally pop the pressure valve on something that... frankly, has been eating my ass since about 5 years ago? I certainly hope so...

I see the 1 in 5 number bandied about throughout the military as well, even though I've worked with plenty of women, and near plenty of women who get as puzzled a look on their face as I do mine when we sit across the room from each other and get preached to... oh, every 3 fucking months, for a whole day. Which is fine, if that's what it really is. However, there's some important shit that you have to consider...

1. The same people who make the statistics, sell the "sensitivity training", or are directly employed, and can correlate future employment to that number going up.

2. The terminology for rape has changed. Specifically, the candy coated term... "Sexual Assault" replacing, encompassing, enveloping, and reaching further than rape.

3. This moves the goal posts, IMO. And believe you me, if you can understand one thing about me... I fucking HATE people who rewrite the victim card, so they can keep playing it. And this, in my not so humble, quasi deific opinion, is exactly what's going on with a lot of this shit that is going around. Numbers dropped in the military, so they moved the goalposts for what constitutes sexual assault. And they'll keep moving it so long as somewhere along the way, there's a dick and a pussy in the equation. They'll have a difficult time once it's past that, but I'm sure they'll give it the old college try.

Now don't get me wrong, I abhor rapists. I'm glad they learn why Prison is the shift key... (Hint... Turns the small "o" into a big "O")... Deep down, I'm sort of glad that some good old normal violent criminal types don't fuck about with going after gang X or Y... In the event of a riot, you can usually find what's left of a rapist and a pedo on the bottom of the broom bristles from the janitor after a prison riot. Sort of restores my faith when that happens.

But, that's getting off track. I hate rapists. But, as a citizen, and as someone who happens to be in a supervisory position over a handful of "players" at any time... I want that term, and sexual assault conjoined, and very narrowly defined. Because I can deal with someone being a hive-dwelling-scumbag and raping a girl, but me brain meats start to go all fuzzy, when I start hearing all the other bullshit like you shouldn't have because she had a few drinks, you shouldn't have because her friends said no, even if she said yes, you shouldn't have if the flower on her confirmation dress 12 years ago... was yellow. Unless its Tuesday.

Tightly define rape, get rid of whatever the fuck sexual assault is supposed to be... (Hint, if you stick your dick an an asshole, and the guy/girl expressed explicitly that they didn't want it there... or you incapacitated them so they couldn't tell you otherwise... You're not a sexual assaulter/ist/whatever. You're just a fucking ass-rapist, and I hope prison does a good job of pressing that shift key, repeatedly on you.) Then run the numbers. No one should get a free pass because they said "fuck it, I'm drunk, let's do this" and woke up next to a fucking male sasquatch.

[Nartek]

damn it...