[Devposts] - Crimewatch, highsec PvP, and neutral RR

[whispous]

This kills neutral RR in PVP in highsec for pretty much everyone. Even if someone decides to use it on station so they can dock the logis, you can counter it with your own neutral ECM, so stuff might actually die for once.

Does it? It kills neutral RR in completely random fights, but neutral RR that reps wartargets or aggressed targets transfers aggression in the same manner as this would.

I don't really see how suspect-ness applies in wars, why would a war target become a suspect in a permitted fight (i.e. WT vs WT, WT vs assister, etc).

Entirely seperately from this - I hope - neutral RR should get an aggression timer at least equivalent to whoever they are repping. If some guy is shooting someone up and you rep them - you inherit their 60 sec combat timer AND the 15 min aggression timer. That's entirely seperate from suspect/vigilante stuff I think?

Yeah that's the thing. Greyscale posted that the team decided using RR on a friendly involved in a war-dec will immediately flag the RR as a suspect. So, in a legal fight between two parties, using a logistics ship will be flagged as a criminal action and let you get shitfucked by the entirety of EVE.

That makes a whole lot of fucking sense. What a fuckwit.

HEY HERE'S AN IDEA


to avoid this problem, why not have your RR alts in corp?

[Ohh_No]

I'm sure most people will put their RR alts in corp as a result of this.

Doesn't fix any of the problems with logistics in high-sec. Whether they're in your corp or not, they aren't going to die.

It just makes zero fucking sense for assisting a party involved in a legal war dec to be a criminal offense and let you get fucked by everyone.

[Daneel Trevize]

Having to be in corp to RR in highsec messes with PvE PUG as well as people having just blues/fleetmates.

Not being allowed to RR someone out of corp with aggro isn't an option to be explored apparently.

[Ohh_No]

Having to be in corp to RR in highsec messes with PvE PUG as well as people having just blues/fleetmates.

Not being allowed to RR someone out of corp with aggro isn't an option to be explored apparently.

In other words, now all you have to do is wardec the major incursion corporations/alliances, and they'll never be able to include logistics from other incursion corporations/alliances in their fleets for the duration of the war. If they did, repping them would give the RR suspect flags and make them easy to gank on acceleration gates, wiping the entire fleet.

[depili]

This will also screw gankers, as ANYONE can shoot/point you scooper alt when he scoops the loot from the tengu/golem/freighter wreck

[whispous]

This will also screw gankers, as ANYONE can shoot/point you scooper alt when he scoops the loot from the tengu/golem/freighter wreck

Be more careful and bring in corp RR to assist your scooper back to the gate then

Suicide ganking is a bit too easy but should always be doable

[Ohh_No]

"the design intent is for suspect flagging to be something that you want to avoid or at the very least treat as a drawback, not an opportunity" - CCP Greyscale

Who wants to treat it like an opportunity with me?

x Shield Vindi + Basilisk alt, need more Basilisks

edit: Bring a Talos in your neutral Orca so if you are aggressed in your Basilisk you can switch ships on grid and zonk them

[pr0lurker]

Don't care much tbh.

Also poasting to say I don't care. Surprised people are still playing really most of my old friends are long gone...

[wallace]

This kills neutral RR in PVP in highsec for pretty much everyone. Even if someone decides to use it on station so they can dock the logis, you can counter it with your own neutral ECM, so stuff might actually die for once.

Does it? It kills neutral RR in completely random fights, but neutral RR that reps wartargets or aggressed targets transfers aggression in the same manner as this would.

I don't really see how suspect-ness applies in wars, why would a war target become a suspect in a permitted fight (i.e. WT vs WT, WT vs assister, etc).

Entirely seperately from this - I hope - neutral RR should get an aggression timer at least equivalent to whoever they are repping. If some guy is shooting someone up and you rep them - you inherit their 60 sec combat timer AND the 15 min aggression timer. That's entirely seperate from suspect/vigilante stuff I think?

Yeah that's the thing. Greyscale posted that the team decided using RR on a friendly involved in a war-dec will immediately flag the RR as a suspect. So, in a legal fight between two parties, using a logistics ship will be flagged as a criminal action and let you get shitfucked by the entirety of EVE.

That makes a whole lot of fucking sense. What a fuckwit.

The sort of RP reasoning was pointed out during one of the pre-match chats on the ATX feed yesterday: You're interfering with a concord-sanctioned war, hence it's illegal.

[Ohh_No]

This kills neutral RR in PVP in highsec for pretty much everyone. Even if someone decides to use it on station so they can dock the logis, you can counter it with your own neutral ECM, so stuff might actually die for once.

Does it? It kills neutral RR in completely random fights, but neutral RR that reps wartargets or aggressed targets transfers aggression in the same manner as this would.

I don't really see how suspect-ness applies in wars, why would a war target become a suspect in a permitted fight (i.e. WT vs WT, WT vs assister, etc).

Entirely seperately from this - I hope - neutral RR should get an aggression timer at least equivalent to whoever they are repping. If some guy is shooting someone up and you rep them - you inherit their 60 sec combat timer AND the 15 min aggression timer. That's entirely seperate from suspect/vigilante stuff I think?

Yeah that's the thing. Greyscale posted that the team decided using RR on a friendly involved in a war-dec will immediately flag the RR as a suspect. So, in a legal fight between two parties, using a logistics ship will be flagged as a criminal action and let you get shitfucked by the entirety of EVE.

That makes a whole lot of fucking sense. What a fuckwit.

The sort of RP reasoning was pointed out during one of the pre-match chats on the ATX feed yesterday: You're interfering with a concord-sanctioned war, hence it's illegal.

So when my logistics ships are in my corp, and I use RR on the mercenary allies I've paid using the new system, my RR goes suspect and dies, even though we're allies with the same war targets.

They're opening up a can of worms that is going to make people mad. There are way too many situations like this involving PUG PvE (incursions), PvP fleets with mixed alliances, etc that they're going to need to address individually by making this change. When I clicked reply with quote on your post, I hadn't even thought of a scenario where a suspect flag isn't deserved and will still pop up. Came up with one as soon as I started typing. I'm sure there are more.

[Kalar Freno]

I'm sure most people will put their RR alts in corp as a result of this.

Doesn't fix any of the problems with logistics in high-sec. Whether they're in your corp or not, they aren't going to die.

It just makes zero fucking sense for assisting a party involved in a legal war dec to be a criminal offense and let you get fucked by everyone.

Your second and third sentences confuse me. Under the new system, logi becomes invincible, and yet also somehow is fucked...

(Actually, to be brutally honest, the whole debate confuses me. Can someone outline a scenario where the new proposed system doesn't match the design goal? Or one where it does a worse job than the current system?)

With regard to can-flipping to initiate 1v1, there are rumors of a dueling system which CCP are planning to implement at the same time as the proposed crimewatch changes. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that it requires leaving any fleet you're currently part of.

[Jack Dant]

How it works now (or the last time I played EVE, at least).

I have 3 guys, my wartargets have 3 guys, I go "nice" and engage. Now it turns out each of those 3 guys had his own guardian alt so I die.

Next time I have 6 guys, they have the same 3 guys and the same 3 guardian alts, and they never undock smacking about how we have to blob 2 to 1 to fight.

So now, we get our own three guardian alts. We engage, they engage, neutral RR happens, nobody dies, everyone deaggros and redocks.

Fuck that, that's not fun at all.

If the guardians go suspect as soon as they engage I can have my own neutral alts kill/jam them, taking them out of the fight.

So what's bad about that?

[Ohh_No]

How it works now (or the last time I played EVE, at least).

I have 3 guys, my wartargets have 3 guys, I go "nice" and engage. Now it turns out each of those 3 guys had his own guardian alt so I die.

Next time I have 6 guys, they have the same 3 guys and the same 3 guardian alts, and they never undock smacking about how we have to blob 2 to 1 to fight.

So now, we get our own three guardian alts. We engage, they engage, neutral RR happens, nobody dies, everyone deaggros and redocks.

Fuck that, that's not fun at all.

If the guardians go suspect as soon as they engage I can have my own neutral alts kill/jam them, taking them out of the fight.

So what's bad about that?

Now you don't have neutral RR, you have neutral Falcons. That's just what EVE fucking needed.

You have neutral fucking Falcons that can jam Guardians without becoming suspects, and the only people that can shoot them are the Guardians they jam.

So now, the key to winning in high-sec is having neutral Guardians as support layer #1, and then neutral Falcons on standby as support layer #2. You use your Guardians until they reveal theirs, your Falcons jam their Guardians, their Falcons jam your Guardians. The Guardians rapidly dock and undock to get rep cycles in because they have no aggro timer, and things MAYBE die because of limited incoming reps.

That's a fuckload more complicated than just giving RR an aggro timer and letting the warring corps sort it out, rather than letting them dock freely and relying on the rest of EVE to intervene.

[xanral]

Seems like the new system will have the griefers make the carebears into "suspects" with a little can-fu and a couple of accounts.

[Kalar Freno]

How it works now (or the last time I played EVE, at least).

I have 3 guys, my wartargets have 3 guys, I go "nice" and engage. Now it turns out each of those 3 guys had his own guardian alt so I die.

Next time I have 6 guys, they have the same 3 guys and the same 3 guardian alts, and they never undock smacking about how we have to blob 2 to 1 to fight.

So now, we get our own three guardian alts. We engage, they engage, neutral RR happens, nobody dies, everyone deaggros and redocks.

Fuck that, that's not fun at all.

If the guardians go suspect as soon as they engage I can have my own neutral alts kill/jam them, taking them out of the fight.

So what's bad about that?

Now you don't have neutral RR, you have neutral Falcons. That's just what EVE fucking needed.

You have neutral fucking Falcons that can jam Guardians without becoming suspects, and the only people that can shoot them are the Guardians they jam.

So now, the key to winning in high-sec is having neutral Guardians as support layer #1, and then neutral Falcons on standby as support layer #2. You use your Guardians until they reveal theirs, your Falcons jam their Guardians, their Falcons jam your Guardians. The Guardians rapidly dock and undock to get rep cycles in because they have no aggro timer, and things MAYBE die because of limited incoming reps.

That's a fuckload more complicated than just giving RR an aggro timer and letting the warring corps sort it out, rather than letting them dock freely and relying on the rest of EVE to intervene.

Or you just put your guardians in corp, and laugh at your opponents falcons, because they can't do anything. In case you missed the memo, aggro timers for RR are also being brought in with the new crimewatch system (RR will inherit all aggro timers from their targets)

Seems like the new system will have the griefers make the carebears into "suspects" with a little can-fu and a couple of accounts.

The new system is being developed around the idea of "safes" I think. i.e. you decide before time what flags you're prepared to accept, and then the game won't let you take actions which will give you flags you don't want. So it will be tricky to force carebears to take a suspect flag unintentionally.

[Jack Dant]

Now you don't have neutral RR, you have neutral Falcons. That's just what EVE fucking needed.

Who needs falcons when you can use disposable blackbirds with no tank, jamming from 70km?

You have neutral fucking Falcons that can jam Guardians without becoming suspects, and the only people that can shoot them are the Guardians they jam.

I'm enjoying the idea.

So now, the key to winning in high-sec is having neutral Guardians as support layer #1, and then neutral Falcons on standby as support layer #2. You use your Guardians until they reveal theirs, your Falcons jam their Guardians, their Falcons jam your Guardians. The Guardians rapidly dock and undock to get rep cycles in because they have no aggro timer, and things MAYBE die because of limited incoming reps.

Or you could just, you know, put your alts into corp and fight it out without training wheels.

That's a fuckload more complicated than just giving RR an aggro timer and letting the warring corps sort it out, rather than letting them dock freely and relying on the rest of EVE to intervene.

Hopefully they fix that too, as they have already said they would.

[randomToon]

CCP Greyscale is a fat, lazy bastard. His only design goal here is to make it look like he's doing a lot of work while actually simplifying the system so much that it can be implemented relatively easily and quickly when he finally gets to doing some actual work. I can't think of any other CCP dev that is such a strong proponent of removing features from the game(instead of modifying, rebalancing and fixing them).
He's the guy that wanted to remove the jump bridges - why is that a bad thing? Because such a precedent means that if CCP decide that something is broken they can just remove it completely instead of fixing it(and this would suit Greyscale just fine, because removing stuff is easier than fixing it).
He is a smart guy, the problem is that he's using his wits to not do any real work, and Eve only getting worse is a side effect that he cares little about.

[n0th]

TL;DR
Highsec faggotry remains highsec faggotry despite Greyscale claiming otherwise on Crimewatch presentation.

c/d?

[xanral]

Seems like the new system will have the griefers make the carebears into "suspects" with a little can-fu and a couple of accounts.

The new system is being developed around the idea of "safes" I think. i.e. you decide before time what flags you're prepared to accept, and then the game won't let you take actions which will give you flags you don't want. So it will be tricky to force carebears to take a suspect flag unintentionally.

The current system also lets you know that stealing your ore back is a bad idea and plenty of people override the warning to do it. I can see situations where the miner is staring at his ore in a can (that is actually not the flipper's can) and chooses to override the state to get it back, allowing anyone to shoot him.

Example:
Flipper A in an NPC corp could flip the can in a shuttle, then when the miner leaves Flipper B (also in an NPC corp) comes by and drops a new can. Flipper A transfers to Flipper B's can (or Flipper B just takes it as A is a suspect). Flipper B warps off. Miner lands in belt with a combat ship and blows up Flipper A's shuttle then flips his can back, ignoring the warning. He then is a suspect and can be blown up be anyone.

I just don't see a lot of gain to risk opening up a can of worms with logi (not that the current logi system is good either).

[Durzel]

If miners steal stuff back they're as good as dead anyway whether everyone can shoot them or the guy who wanted him to shoot in the first place. At least with this proposed system a canflipper can't just sit around hoping the miner will respond since he'll be a suspect at that point and at risk of being snagged by someone.