[Devposts] - Crimewatch, highsec PvP, and neutral RR

[Kalar Freno]

Seems like the new system will have the griefers make the carebears into "suspects" with a little can-fu and a couple of accounts.

The new system is being developed around the idea of "safes" I think. i.e. you decide before time what flags you're prepared to accept, and then the game won't let you take actions which will give you flags you don't want. So it will be tricky to force carebears to take a suspect flag unintentionally.

The current system also lets you know that stealing your ore back is a bad idea and plenty of people override the warning to do it. I can see situations where the miner is staring at his ore in a can (that is actually not the flipper's can) and chooses to override the state to get it back, allowing anyone to shoot him.

Example:
Flipper A in an NPC corp could flip the can in a shuttle, then when the miner leaves Flipper B (also in an NPC corp) comes by and drops a new can. Flipper A transfers to Flipper B's can (or Flipper B just takes it as A is a suspect). Flipper B warps off. Miner lands in belt with a combat ship and blows up Flipper A's shuttle then flips his can back, ignoring the warning. He then is a suspect and can be blown up be anyone.

I just don't see a lot of gain to risk opening up a can of worms with logi (not that the current logi system is good either).

A) This scenario will probably be dealt with via ore bays in mining ships.

B) It sounds like the 'safe' system will be harder to disable than just clicking through a box. There will almost certainly be some people who do it anyway, but "turning this off will mean you may end up with all of eve able to shoot you without penalty" might be a fairly strong deterrent.

[xanral]

Currently I feel its pretty easy for both sides to manipulate the aggression mechanics and I'd be surprised if the same were not true of the crimewatch mechanics. Better safeties on the states is a good thing but I'm not confident that the actual implementation will have less loopholes then the current system. CCP's statements on the logi element of it does not suggest to me that they will have a good grasp on how such a system might play out when it comes time to implementing it.

[Lallante]

So many people in this thread are so full of shit.

These changes actually look p. good.

[Marlona Sky]

You can always bait people. Have some friends posing as local enforcers dealing with you and see if anyone joins in. The moment they do, the 'enforcer' masks come off and start repairing you. All the while watching you own the local guy who hoped to ninja on a kill mail.

[Maksim]

Interesting changes. The crime system wouldn't hurt from simplification.

Is there any particular reason they can't implement "rr inherits all aggression flags and timers of its target"? If a neutral shoots a suspect, there is some flag allowing the suspect to shoot back, so why not allow him to shoot anyone who rr's them, as well? Similarly, if the rr's target is aggressing, he would get an aggression timer, as well.

[Pontifex Tellanius]

Is there any particular reason they can't implement "rr inherits all aggression flags and timers of its target"? If a neutral shoots a suspect, there is some flag allowing the suspect to shoot back, so why not allow him to shoot anyone who rr's them, as well? Similarly, if the rr's target is aggressing, he would get an aggression timer, as well.

I think that one reason is that it would be quite easy to trick people to RR your T1 BC and then suicide to get them agressed or even killed by concord on purpose, meaning that it would be detrimental to carebears and noobs helping each other out. I guess trust is hard to come by as it is...

[Sponk]

Is there any particular reason they can't implement "rr inherits all aggression flags and timers of its target"?

One reason they're reworking crimewatch is that it kicks the server in the balls if there's a large fleet fight in lowsec. They're trying to set up a consistent, stateless set of rules that can be applied a lot faster than the current transitive proliferation of flags that currently exist.

[Marlona Sky]

Or we could just turn all space into 0.0 and be done with it.

[Yankunytjatjara]

This will also screw gankers, as ANYONE can shoot/point you scooper alt when he scoops the loot from the tengu/golem/freighter wreck

Only if the scooper isn't in fleet afaik

Or we could just turn all space into 0.0 and be done with it.

Le lolz

[OrangeAfroMan]

RR giving agro is what the game very dearly needs in all space.

[depili]

This will also screw gankers, as ANYONE can shoot/point you scooper alt when he scoops the loot from the tengu/golem/freighter wreck

Only if the scooper isn't in fleet afaik

PVP wrecks are always owned by the former pilot of the ship unlike PVE wrecks. Also RRing even a t2 hauler is quite iffy and with freighters the points are the problem, even more if you can't shoot back with in-fleet concorddokkened gankers to the someone pointing the suspect flagged freighter...

[Lallante]

Option 1 - RR does not give aggro at all - neutral RR is FOTM and horrible OP because it is invincible
Option 2 - RR of a criminal/suspect/wartarget makes you a suspect - RR is a big risk but you can always see who is a criminal/suspect and get a popup if you try to rep them or a wartarget, so dont do it if you are surrounded by potential enemies. No lag
Option 3 - an incredibly complex system where the RRer inherits the RRee's legit targets / enemies - this causes immense lag in large fights and fairly difficult to wrap your head around ("so wait, you can shoot him but not him, and I cant shoot either of you unless he shoots him and then I RR him?")

They picked option 2, which seems the no brainer to me. NBS that people whine though

[CastleBravo]

Make RR an aggressive act that is treated the same as firing your guns at everyone the person you are repping is currently engaged in combat with. If you can't legally shoot the person shooting-at/getting-shot-at-by the person you want to rep, either your reps deactivate if you have your safeties on, or you get a criminal flag. No more neutral RR butting into fights in high sec unless they want to get concorded, and no more insta-dock/jump due to 60 second timer from outgoing RR.

[Boris Borison]

Option 2 - RR of a criminal/suspect/wartarget makes you a suspect - RR is a big risk but you can always see who is a criminal/suspect and get a popup if you try to rep them or a wartarget, so dont do it if you are surrounded by potential enemies. No lag

Sounds ok to me, but what happens if the RR target becomes a suspect after you've started RRing? Cycle finishes and then you get a popup, or oops, everyone can shoot you?

[Lallante]

Option 2 - RR of a criminal/suspect/wartarget makes you a suspect - RR is a big risk but you can always see who is a criminal/suspect and get a popup if you try to rep them or a wartarget, so dont do it if you are surrounded by potential enemies. No lag

Sounds ok to me, but what happens if the RR target becomes a suspect after you've started RRing? Cycle finishes and then you get a popup, or oops, everyone can shoot you?

I assume the former (popup) and deactivation

[Tarkis]

I don't know about high-sec and its station/canflipping games, but in lowsec you should be granted killrights on neutral RR's that assist ships that kill you. Doesn't matter if you are a valid wartarget or FW target. The exception being outlaws, of course.

This is also assuming you never attacked the RR ship before you popped, just like how normal kill rights work.

[Yankunytjatjara]

This will also screw gankers, as ANYONE can shoot/point you scooper alt when he scoops the loot from the tengu/golem/freighter wreck

Only if the scooper isn't in fleet afaik

PVP wrecks are always owned by the former pilot of the ship unlike PVE wrecks.

I think this was changed a while ago, now it's like in pve. At least this is what I remember from when I used to do rvb fleets, did this change again? ...Am I just confused?

[WatsonMayte]

This will also screw gankers, as ANYONE can shoot/point you scooper alt when he scoops the loot from the tengu/golem/freighter wreck

Only if the scooper isn't in fleet afaik

PVP wrecks are always owned by the former pilot of the ship unlike PVE wrecks.

Did this change? I generated quite a number of pvp wrecks in my career... Am I just confused?

You may have generated them but they still belong to whoever you liberated the wreck from & if someone steals from the wreck they get aggro to the player now in a pod

Edit: spelling