Reaffirmation of faith. Solo BSs in Eve, in 2012

[xanral]

Well that's another reason for this topic, and I don't want to just rant but try progress things. Seems I missed that golden age of BSs, and if you listen to Kil2/Kovorix/Endless/Prom/anyone who did that sort of bleeder fit and has even thought of trying it again these says, they just DAIF very quickly.

You can still beat current small gangs with the plate+LAR gank fit of old. I didn't put it in my latest video but I had quite a few fights where I would jump into 5-6 with my mega and just pop one or two in the first 30 seconds and the rest would warp off. I even had a fight where I successfully took on a Dual X-L ASB BS with the mega. I haven't encountered another dual X-L ASB BS in the mega so I cannot comment if it was just a freak thing or not. I tend to think of the plate+LAR more like a prom HAC than a tanky battleship, work to split their fleet and give me half a minute with only 1 or 2 of them. I'm not some ace pilot either so I figure if it works for me it can work for others.

One important thing to note is that going from 1000 to 1500 dps can often take down ships at 2X+ the speed. If they have 750 rep on them then 1000 dps is only 250 dps after rep, 1500 is 750 dps after rep. This becomes even more important with things like single X-L ASB canes and cruisers. If you can outdps its rep by a large margin it will pop early.

Two webs and a scram or else scram, web, and tracking bonus seems to be the sweet spot for me for fittings where I can apply 90+% of my paper brawl dps to BC and above and most cruiser hulls.

Obviously there are gang compositions this is terrible for but you normally have the buffer and MWD to survive to jump out or at least take down some that came in close to hold you down before you explode.

[OrangeAfroMan]

The only reason BS are 'bad' in solo/small gang PvP nowadays is you -have- to commit to the fight. There is no escape rout because you're too slow so it comes down to 'kill everything or deagress/die to ever increasing blobs'

If you embrace that fact and fit accordingly (ala Kil2), you will have more success.

I'll be heading out in BS more soon but my corp randomly decided to move the other day so I now have to jumpclone and travel back to where my BS are.

[OrangeAfroMan]

Also, Prom is far from an expert on solo BSing (sorry Prom)

[OrangeAfroMan]

I should also add that the reason geddons (and maybe Domis/Megas with sentries) work without propmods is their excellent damage projection. I always fit a locus rig on my my geddons for 44km optimal of justice.

[Suleiman Shouaa]

I think the Rattler will work quite well (at least on paper, still need to train T2 Sentries before I take it out) with dual XL-ASB. It does cost more than the Abaddon/Hyperion/Tempest, but shield resist rigs are dirt cheap whereas Trimarks are at least 10M (been a while since I've bought some). Also Large T2 guns tend to be much more expensive than the equivalent Missile Launchers.

Advantages:

- Selectable damage type to a certain extent
- High DPS (looking at 1000+ DPS with Heavies & Faction Torpedoes)
- VERY ECM resistant - base Sensor Strength is 30 compared to 23 of Hyperion + drones don't need a lock to do damage so even if you're jammed, you're still applying DPS.
- Fantastic, capacitor free tank even without links + crystals.
- Utility highs free for Smartbomb (to clear ECM Drones as well as damage drones, which can drop DPS significantly over the course of a long fight) + Heavy Neut (pretty much your #1 all around tool). Could also use a Drone Link Augmentor so you can put Sentry Drones on Recons up to 72km away.
- Better than average tackle - you can fit web + scrambler + painter/another web.

Disadvantages:

- Drones can be killed
- Drone DPS can't really be manipulated like Turrets
- Slow even for a Battleship (don't recommend fitting an MWD either so you can keep the Painter)

[OrangeAfroMan]

I'm thinking about trying Mega with:

Neutrons
Medium smartbomb

Mwd
Heavy booster
Web
Scram

LAR
2x1600mm
ANP
IFFA
2xMFS

Trimarks

Bouncers

Looks promising

In the mean time, I have a couple Domis to burn, so I'm going to take this out:

[Dominix, Dominix - Single Rep]

Large Armor Repairer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Medium YF-12a Smartbomb

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x5
Bouncer II x5
Warrior II x5
Warrior II x5
Vespa II x5
Light Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

Reactive Hardener will likely be an Armor Explosive Hardener

[OrangeAfroMan]

Welp, domi down. The part that's gay about solo bs is they attract a lot of attention apparently.

Died to a provi gang on nine ships, the two i jumped into were a rook and huginn. Permajam.

They said gf for some reason

[Daneel Trevize]

Again please try refrain from filling the thread with specific fits, and can you guys please go back and spoiler/font size 1 those so they don't distract?

The rattler is still a shiny 'gank me' BS, though I think the most interesting take-away from that acceptable fit and the Maelstroms' is that the lack of prop mod is viable on a BS. Apart from some very rare things (Aldap's propless Rupture in lowsec), the current meta says speed is key, MWD is almost mandatory, even an AB is no where near enough. Yet there's something about BSs that allows them to shine while having the absolute worst positioning control.

I think that this is only limited to active shield BSs, in combination with crystal+links and vs gate/station camps. You either manage to warp to 0km on the gate and hope to not be bumped off, or you trust in the tank to buy you time to slowboat to deaggress range (having scouted that they don't have enough hard tackle). See accepted Maelstrom, Rokh, Scorpion, Nightmare fits. The Rokh's range bonus really isn't that much for a blaster setup, equally torps are pretty terrible for the scorp/rattler, yet they're deemed able to get away with no speed while a Domi/Mega/Hyperion would not. A web, scram, dual injector Mega would be great for applying dps and have a comparable tank(a little more buffer & cap stability, notably less raw dps tank), yet why can't it be accepted while the scram-only Maelstrom was for so long (I believe now that a web's favoured on this setup, people are wising up)?

Rudolf, that Mach fit's not actually got the heavy neut which is a BS speciality. I'd actually say Fon's armour + officer web fit is most taking advantage of BS abilities. In fact officer webs are something that's also basically BS & capship only thanks to fitting stats. Yet I don't expect their price to suddenly fall to reasonable levels if we discover a new use for them on tech1 BSs.
HG Pirate implants + 2 link T3s can probably make most crazy setups work, what is there for the 12+8 tech1+navy ships that are reasonable for general players?

I guess this is the current product of such thinkings:
[Typhoon, being the best BS?]

Large Armor Repairer II
Reactor Control Unit II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Gyrostabilizer II
Large Armor Repairer II

Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Large 'Vehemence' Shockwave Charge
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Anti-Thermic Pump I


Bouncer II x5
Hammerhead II x5

BC buffer, 1k/2k active tank (before/after links), only 681dps max skills. Perhaps the HHs should be warriors+ec-300s, or just ec-600s? The Bouncers could be changed to Ogres and the long point to a scram, but you have no speed to get to things that stray close enough to be neuted out, and well they're neuted out, so probably best to point and slowboat into web range. Tier3s and other kiters should be vulnerable to being neuted if they try hold point, they can't kill you before they burn theirs if they try to stay nearer 28km even if they easily can dictate range.

Another take might be:
[Typhoon, being the best BS? 2]

Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Large Armor Repairer II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Medium EMP Smartbomb II
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Anti-Thermic Pump I


Warrior II x5
Bouncer II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

Now half the tank (1.2k), double the buffer (100k), 1km/s speed or 1.4 with heat. Just 600dps. Not a bad number of itself compared to cruisers/HACs/'regular' BCs, but short guns for BSs/tier3 BCs and IDK how well they and sentries track.

As to the bleeder fits, even with legion links and at least LG slaves, you're only looking at 1-1.2k tank and ~100k EHP. Like I said, maybe it was just a bad experience, but more than a couple of BCs will invalidate the active element and then you're basically an unlinked, unimplanted BS's buffer, with either average DPS, or tricked out like the 2 above with utility highs and nearer cruiser dps.

If you're without links & implants, you're basically a big fat BC which can't even perma-tank a cane, though you will of course kill 1 if there's just 1 or 2, but can die before getting any if there's 3 or more, or a couple of tier3s also there. Unless I'm just wrong, I'm just not persuaded by their stats enough to derp enough to get a lot of experience in them, especially when I hear the well known pilots of them saying they're no good and only producing lossmails from them these days. Thus I believe they need to give up some part of their buffer/dps/active element to regain a place in the solo meta.

[OrangeAfroMan]

You ask us not to post specific fits.... then do so yourself?

OK.

[Daneel Trevize]

Yeah I'm bad, but those I put are relatively transplantable to other BSs and of the 'new' style to help people get what I'm talking about. Again I say those far more experienced than me have called the 1 LAR + dps fit dead, and also well known.

What I mean is I don't want to fixate on one particular ship that might have just the right combo of strengths to do something that almost all the other BSs can't replicate. I'm after the stats you're aiming for & utility choices rather than exactly how to cram the modules on. E.g. I frankly give no fucks about have a mixed or meta gun to make things work at this scale.

[Cosmin]

As a disclaimer I'm not an expert on PvP, just trying to make conversation ^.^

Imho because of the resist profiles one might actually get a (lot better) tank out of T3s, with a mildly similar investment if going full pimp, even better if one considers that a BS will almost always take full damage from whatever is thrown at it (whilst doing less damage unless it gets BS opponents) and a cruiser hull would benefit from the reduced sig radius whilst doing full damage with its guns.


On paper it might seem that a BS does insane DPS compared to anything smaller, but if it's welped by battlecruisers that might not help.


To not be totally off topic, my 0.02 ISK on this beyond what Daneel mentioned:
Cons:
- needs big opponents to apply full DPS and/or webs/neuts to apply it to smaller targets;
- tanks less than a T2/T3 cruiser or CS; my EFT warrior Legion with implants and links can tank 2.9K DPS omni with implants/links/improved exile and practically it'll tank more than that unless target painted/webbed to hell and back.
- agility is down the drain;
- drones - the bigger they are the harder they explode;
- get caught by a >10 frigate roam = die a slow, agonizing death.

Pros:
- excellent bait - full rack of neuts triple rep Domi?
- allows for some mistakes compared to smaller hulls;
- no danger of being alphaed; not as big as a cruiser hull at least;
- where there's a 90% web bonus,



When are they going to boost the marauder's sensor strenght? They might actually be better than pirate faction BS - 4 guns doing the damage of 8, 3 utility slots, bonus to local reps, T2 resists, yum.

[Daneel Trevize]

So I was going to make this post about heavy neuts on BSs, but kinda gave up.

Time for some spreadsheets online:
Tier3s have the following GJ cap with an mwd fitted and perfect skills:
Oracle: 3.54k
Talos: 3.14k
Naga: 2.94k
Tornado: 2.73k

3 meta4/ heavy neuts have 25.2km range and remove 600GJ cap each, so a 1.8k volley, and a 24s cycle/20.4s with heat. Thus within 20-25s and if they're in range at the start and end of cycle (neuts seem :honeybadger: like that), you can remove 3.6k GJ. This costs your ship ~400x3x2, 2.4k GJ. ~1/3 of a BS's cap and easily sustainable by 1 t2 heavy injector running navy 800s, before heat.

On tier 3s, Blasters using Null/AM need ~5GJ each, or 40 GJ for the whole rack. Pulse lasers with Scorch/MF are ~8GJ so 64GJ for the rack. Projectiles are OP. A 10MN mwd needs ~140GJ to cycle.
So, except in the case of the Oracle, you're certain to have turned their mwd off even considering recharge (peak, which you probably push them to, seems to be 13.5GJ/s x 25s = ~330GJ more).
Tier3s go ~300m/s without an mwd and once they lose speed. They do about 650-800dps from 25km with what I think are standard shield fits & skills.
You've also probably stopped an Oracle shooting but 1 more volley and interrupted the Talos/Naga from firing at all. This is before considering the cap they use warping, shooting & mwding. 3/4 ain't bad if only they were equally fielded.
They seem to have 25-30k EHP, thus even at 1000 applied dps from yourself, they're quicker to neut out than go full dps fit and kill assuming you could catch them.
Leaving 1 heavy neut on the dry one and only having 2 neuts free, it's ~50s before you switch neut targets to start neuting any next one out, and with 2 neuts but them assumed to havie used 30% cap, that's still 1min20 into the fight before you stop the second one firing (10s quicker max with heat, twitchfest, roughtly 0s, 25s, 55s, 80s). If they aren't staying in neut range, they're doing less dps and struggling to hold a point if you move with an mwd towards/away from them. Unless they have links, then you're fucked w.r.t. this tactic.

Tier 1 BCs have ~2.2k GJ, tier 2 have ~3kGJ. HACs seem to be 1k-1.5k. CBA to run exact numbers but obviously far easier & quicker to neut, plus weapons that mean most want to be deep inside range to do decent dps.

Sadly fitting 3 heavy neuts is a lot of PG, 2k each, even a Mega using no fitting mods is looking at 5 Electrons left on a bleeder tank, dual injected fit, pushing ~650dps with Null but at web range, or ~400dps at 25km once heavy drones get over there.

This is where the idea started to fail. 2k PG is more than most guns, so I ended up with some compromised fits where you still had 2xLAR(loads of PG used here too), 2x injector, mwd, large smarty, only 2 heavy neuts which makes this much slower, and then 5 guns and that crap dps, which you possibly also don't apply so good with only maybe a web if they're too close/stupid.

You can do this to the Mega and Hype, and probably the 'Pest and Maelstrom. The Domi and the 'Phoon (as per above) have always been gimped for PG it seems.

Anyone tried putting 2+ heavy neuts on a non-Domi non-dedicated-neuting BS? Especially one with an active tank & otherwise soloing fit? Dat 40% dps loss.

[Ophichius]

I run a dual-neut 800mm AC pest as my standard pest. It's tanked with a stiff drink and a prayer though.

Triple-neut Phoon is quite doable, I never considered it for nuking down Ti3s specifically, and it seemed overkill on everything else, but it's very much possible.

-O

[OrangeAfroMan]

Phoon with two heavy neuts and a smartbomb is much more practical than 3x neut IMO

[prometheus]

I'm no pro when it comes to BS, but I think the Mega is hugely overrated.
The Domi is far better, and while more expensive, so is the Hyperion.
The Mega is very easy to exploit, and for the cost IMO you're better off with a Command Ship (Astarte).

The Raven is probably the most underrated, as with DXLASB it's pretty awesome now.

With that said, I still have a Vindi, Rattler, and Navy Scorp waiting to be flown <_<

[Daneel Trevize]

I desire you to expand on your points, Prom.
I assume the Mega's problem comes from only having 4 mids, thus no web + dual injectors + prop mod. And 1 injector + nos being so vulnerable.
The Astarte has no fucking range though, at least with the Mega if you get a scram on something you can hit it, not still be kited.

Edit: actually I had a brief chat yesterday with Logan from ME, asking about BSs & neuting and odd fits. Reckons people will go grab a counter neuty ship if they can when they see you active tanking, rather than neuts simply being a general concern from usual lowsec ships.
Equally a 1injector+nos Mega has done certain people fine for literally hundreds of losses over several years of near exclusive use, but more recently dual injected fits were favoured with a neut rather than a smarty, so are EC-drones something one can just out-last in a BS? And save that slot for more dps/neuting?
And is it that tackling frigs/cruisers or counter-neuting canes is also something to really consider? And is that also not a declining thing in the face of people flying tier3s instead?

[prometheus]

I desire you to expand on your points, Prom.
I assume the Mega's problem comes from only having 4 mids, thus no web + dual injectors + prop mod. And 1 injector + nos being so vulnerable.
The Astarte has no fucking range though, at least with the Mega if you get a scram on something you can hit it, not still be kited.

Everyone knows what the Mega can do, so people pile onto it.
Unlike the Dominix or Hyperion, it can't *really* defend itself.

For a blaster ship, the Mega (and all Hybrid BS) has terrible cap and unlike the Hyperion/Dominix/Rokh, doesn't have the mids (or range) to make up for it.
It's incapable of dealing damage, tanking, and handling neuts. The only way it seems to really work is by sacrificing your web (a bad idea) or running a full buffer fit (also a bad idea, because passive armor sucks).

Now sure, you could drop the utility neut for a Nos, but unlike smaller blaster ships, it needs the neut to catch faster targets.
The ship doesn't have the tanking ability to ignore kiters and slowboat around like the Dominix, Rokh, & Hyperion do.

The ships problems are only magnified when you combine the popularity of Tier3 BCs & Bombers.

For the cost of a Mega, I'd much rather be flying around in a less threatening Raven or Tempest.
Even the Astarte, while not very good in its own right, is much better simply because it can catch stuff AND tank.

Edit:
The Navy Mega is *better* because it's got a good helping more eHP and slot to work with. Navy Dominix is way better though.
The Vindicator is better because it's similar to a Hyperion, and has a 90% web.
The Kronos is better because it's similar to the Hyperion, has utility highs, and a 90% web (needs grid tho).

[Zumwalt]

Has there ever been an era where solo roaming battleships were the norm? Seeing as nearly all the weakpoints dissapear once you are in a fleet!

They were much more viable back in '06-'07. Basically pre-web nerf. I'd say their heyday was pre-invention, when T2 was rare and stupidly expensive. (250M for a Vaga is 'expensive' these days. Hah! Back in my day you paid 550M for the hull and 10-15M per gun! For T2! Uphill both ways in the space snow!)

Tempest can actually do an almost straight up version of the above Hype fit. Trades away quite a bit of tank and DPS for flexible damage types, higher tracking (with tracking ammo), and twin heavy neuts.

[Tempest, Tempest - Stalliongrad]
Large Armor Repairer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Warrior II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5


-O

I really like this tempest fit, but I changed the rigs to trimarks.

I feel like solo bs is something that is going to go away soon, as they do tiericide and make all the tier 1 and 2 battleships more expensive (probably as expensive as current tier 3s). When that occurs, I won't be as excited about going and blinding flying a 250+ mil isk hull into the abyss

[Daneel Trevize]

CCP don't set the price, supply & demand do. If some BSs are made better, people will list them for slightly more but not significant change will be sustainable, yet equally if they're nerfed they'll be cheaper than atm. Unless build costs change. And 200+mil hulls are cheap if they're insurable.

FWIW I never did get around to trying the active tanked + multiple heavy neuts BSs. Current brawling BS meta is fit an AB to counter all the scram-only ASB shit. It's better than a web for getting back to gate/adding mass to mitigate bumps, dictating range/transversal, and reducing missile damage (which will be more of a thing come Dec4th).

[DaBigCheez]

Unless build costs change.

Which, if it follows the pattern of the mining barge changes and there's no particular reason I'm aware of to believe it won't, is exactly what will be changing.