Oh god, another ECM thread

[Boris Borison]

Tldr: ECM makes your locks go kinda fuzzy.

ECM stays chance based, you don't lose your locks but your targets get harder to damage or otherwise affect.

Ratio of ECM strength vs sensor strength determines the penalty to the ECM'd ship, stacking penalties should apply.

Turrets on an ECM'd ship would get an increase to the signature stat, missiles an increase to explosion radius. (or if it's easier to implement a decrease in the sig radius of the target)

Webs, sensor damps, tracking disruptors, painters, nos, neuts, remote reps, remote sensor boosts, cap transfers, etc would be less effective.

I'm not sure about scrams and disruptors. I'm torn between less range or still get shut down (either way effectively ECM still gives you the GTFO ability)

I would theorycraft some numbers, but effort...

Discuss/flame away.

[Sponk]

ecm,dr

[Mfume]

You could have the secondary EWAR (point, web, neuts) range act as falloff instead of optimal.

[Ophichius]

So, ECM is suddenly TD++ -and- decreases every other combat stat? Fuck that noise. What you're proposing only has two possible strengths, OP as fuck, or so UP that no one uses it.

-O

[Boris Borison]

So, ECM is suddenly TD++ -and- decreases every other combat stat? Fuck that noise. What you're proposing only has two possible strengths, OP as fuck, or so UP that no one uses it.

TD++ ? How? doesn't affect tracking affects damage

OP? WTF you smoking? much less OP than the current ECM where you can basically do fuck all for the ECM cycle and have to relock afterwards. UP compared to current ECM mechanics, yes, but isn't that what most people want?

You could have the secondary EWAR (point, web, neuts) range act as falloff instead of optimal.

Yeah range or effectiveness, either would work for me.

Poll results so far: as expected I'm a retard

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Tracking formula makes sig radius and speed equal determinants ib the hit chance.

So adjusting g the turret resolution is identical to tracking disruption

[Boris Borison]

Tracking formula makes sig radius and speed equal determinants ib the hit chance.

So adjusting g the turret resolution is identical to tracking disruption

Ok so TD equivalent conceded, but remember l'm keeping ECM chance based, so it isn't TD++

[Ophichius]

Tracking formula makes sig radius and speed equal determinants ib the hit chance.

So adjusting g the turret resolution is identical to tracking disruption

Ok so TD equivalent conceded, but remember l'm keeping ECM chance based, so it isn't TD++

Yes it is. It works on missiles too. You're talking about something that would quite literally make TDs the worse choice in every case simply due to the utterly massive -range- of things that ECM would degrade. The reason ECM (And drones in particular) are so good now is that they utterly fuck your combat ability any time the ECM lands. You're just making ECM fuck your combat ability in different ways. See my above point that without changing the core mechanics you're either going to have a mod that is incredibly OP, or utterly worthless. There is no middle ground with as big a stat spread as you want to affect.

-O

[Boris Borison]

Tracking formula makes sig radius and speed equal determinants ib the hit chance.

So adjusting g the turret resolution is identical to tracking disruption

Ok so TD equivalent conceded, but remember l'm keeping ECM chance based, so it isn't TD++

Yes it is. It works on missiles too. You're talking about something that would quite literally make TDs the worse choice in every case simply due to the utterly massive -range- of things that ECM would degrade. The reason ECM (And drones in particular) are so good now is that they utterly fuck your combat ability any time the ECM lands. You're just making ECM fuck your combat ability in different ways. See my above point that without changing the core mechanics you're either going to have a mod that is incredibly OP, or utterly worthless. There is no middle ground with as big a stat spread as you want to affect.

-O

You're trolling me aren't you (god I hope so, otherwise were dropped on you head as a baby?)
This is a nerf to ECM...
Current ECM = You're totally screwed for the duration of the timer, then you have to relock and if your lock time is long chances are that you get jammed again. The only real counter (because lol ECCM) is for someone else to kill the ECM ship.

This version of ECM = Kill the ECM ship yourself, at reduced effectiveness, or carry on doing whatever you were doing ie remote repping, cap transfering, scramming etc, again at reduced effectiveness.

Why would you think everyone would suddenly start fitting ECM instead of a TD? They won't for the same reasons they don't now, ECM would still have the current drawbacks compared to a TD, harder to fit, more cap intensive, and chance based.

[Acidictadpole]

Reduce cycle time. It's what, 20 seconds right now? Make it 5 or 10 seconds and make the module last longer than the jam.

[Ophichius]

You're trolling me aren't you (god I hope so, otherwise were dropped on you head as a baby?)
This is a nerf to ECM...
Current ECM = You're totally screwed for the duration of the timer, then you have to relock and if your lock time is long chances are that you get jammed again. The only real counter (because lol ECCM) is for someone else to kill the ECM ship.

This version of ECM = Kill the ECM ship yourself, at reduced effectiveness, or carry on doing whatever you were doing ie remote repping, cap transfering, scramming etc, again at reduced effectiveness.

Why would you think everyone would suddenly start fitting ECM instead of a TD? They won't for the same reasons they don't now, ECM would still have the current drawbacks compared to a TD, harder to fit, more cap intensive, and chance based.

I'm not trolling, you're misreading me. The changes you're proposing are so wide-reaching that there are only two possible outcomes to making those changes. Either the values used are high enough to make ECM overpowered, or the values used are so low as to make ECM worthless. There is no middle ground to a module that drastically curtails all combat capability in a ship. So this is either going to make ECM utterly and completely worthless, or it'll get fielded on everything. Purely dependent on how strong the actual effect is made.

I understand that your goal is to nerf ECM. My goal is to see it -balanced-, which means it should be worth fitting in some circumstances but not all. What you're proposing is a module whose only two possible strengths are 'always useful in every situation' or 'so weak as to be not worth the slot to fit it'.

And yes, I know ECM is already a module that's useful in all situations. That needs to change. Your proposal doesn't fix the core issue.

As an aside, please refrain from personal insults you dog-faced, arse-scented simpering louse.

-O

[Boris Borison]

Firstly + rep to Ophichius for not voting for the "op is a retard" option (yet) even though I was out of order (I still think you don't get my point, see below) but you're right personally insulting you was wrong, I apologise.

Either the values used are high enough to make ECM overpowered...[and] it'll get fielded on everything

Overpowered? isn't that where we are with the current ECM system?
This is the bit where I think you don't get it (and I suspected trolling) because even if the TD/sig radius or whatever effect was so high that you could hit/damage or rep etc nothing, yet still kept your lock, it would still be less OP than it is now. In other words even with OTT values it would still be a nerf to ECM and thus make ECM a less, not more popular module. (a possible idea by itself? ECM doesn't break your lock, but stops you activating mods on a locked target, still a nerf, but not a big enough nerf imho)

or the values used are so low as to make ECM worthless

I agree, wouldn't want that. God imagine the whine threads on eve-o about wasted skill points, I'd join in, Caldari cruiser V, recon to V + all the other ECM skills to a min of IV reporting in.

And yes, I know ECM is already a module that's useful in all situations. That needs to change. Your proposal doesn't fix the core issue.

There I disagree, I don't consider that to be the core issue. Apart form TD's aren't most of the other Ewar mods useful in pretty much all situations? (obviously if you're in a blaster boat, damping your target isn't going to help much) maybe the answer to that is to make TD's affect missiles? (I'm sure I've seen this suggested elsewhere, possibly by a CCP dev, and I would add my support)

I think the core issue is that ECM is overpowered, in that sometimes (because of chance based) it completely screws you. I'm proposing that sometimes it partially screws you, in some ways less effective than SD's/TD's because they always work and are easier to fit/run.

I might be wrong but you seem to be arguing about the level of the effect, not the idea itself. So far I've only suggested a concept and not put numbers to it. I think the concept itself is one discussion, and the how much it screws you discussion would come later. If I were CCP I would release the idea to SISI with OTT numbers and balance from there. If that happened I think the discussion about how screwed you get would spawn a megathread by itself.

Poll update, looks like I is retarded, larger sample needed to be sure.

[Ophichius]

Overpowered? isn't that where we are with the current ECM system?
This is the bit where I think you don't get it (and I suspected trolling) because even if the TD/sig radius or whatever effect was so high that you could hit/damage or rep etc nothing, yet still kept your lock, it would still be less OP than it is now. In other words even with OTT values it would still be a nerf to ECM and thus make ECM a less, not more popular module. (a possible idea by itself? ECM doesn't break your lock, but stops you activating mods on a locked target, still a nerf, but not a big enough nerf imho)

The problem is that you're changing the magnitude of what ECM does without changing why doing that is such a bad thing. (Completely incapacitating a ship for 20s vs severely incapacitating a ship for 20s). In addition, your changes decrease the effectiveness of one of the two tools which is an effective way to fight under ECM, which is FoFs.

I agree, wouldn't want that. God imagine the whine threads on eve-o about wasted skill points, I'd join in, Caldari cruiser V, recon to V + all the other ECM skills to a min of IV reporting in.

Well, underpowered modules are bad from a game design perspective. You want to get things balanced nicely. That said, I -do- like Caldari tears. Hmm...

There I disagree, I don't consider that to be the core issue. Apart form TD's aren't most of the other Ewar mods useful in pretty much all situations? (obviously if you're in a blaster boat, damping your target isn't going to help much) maybe the answer to that is to make TD's affect missiles? (I'm sure I've seen this suggested elsewhere, possibly by a CCP dev, and I would add my support)

Most E-war mods have ranges/situations that they break down in. Damps are really only useful at long range; TDs are only useful vs turret boats, and only at range or if you can achieve significant angular velocity against them; Painters are really only useful in a gang when you need the absolute maximum tracking advantage possible (and they fail to be good until the target is at least triple-webbed.). I actually oppose the suggestion that TDs degrade missiles for much the same reason that I hate ECM. It's not a tactical solution but an all-encompassing solution. TDs then become the anti-damage mod.

Hell, they honestly need to split Caldari e-war out into primary and secondary e-war, and I wouldn't be opposed to some form of anti-missile system that's effectively a TD for missiles becoming Caldari primary e-war.

I think the core issue is that ECM is overpowered, in that sometimes (because of chance based) it completely screws you. I'm proposing that sometimes it partially screws you, in some ways less effective than SD's/TD's because they always work and are easier to fit/run.

You're still talking about rolling the dice to see if it ruins your day or not. That's a mechanic that's inherently bad. If you're going to radically re-vamp Caldari E-war, it should be a revamp that completely fixes the problem, not just ameliorates it.

I might be wrong but you seem to be arguing about the level of the effect, not the idea itself. So far I've only suggested a concept and not put numbers to it. I think the concept itself is one discussion, and the how much it screws you discussion would come later. If I were CCP I would release the idea to SISI with OTT numbers and balance from there. If that happened I think the discussion about how screwed you get would spawn a megathread by itself.

I'm actually arguing that the idea itself means that the level of effect is largely irrelevant, because the change won't result in improving Eve either way. (It either preserves the status of ECM = overpowered, or it neuters ECM until it's worthless, and thus removes diversity of playstyles from the game.)

-O

[Marlona Sky]

In before the Prom. Also fuck all ECM users with a rusty spiked mace.

[Mfume]

Most E-war mods have ranges/situations that they break down in. Damps are really only useful at long range

Scan res damping logis is kinda good past small gangs. Everything else you say regarding TQ reality is pretty much spot on, even if I disagree with your suggestions.

[Yankunytjatjara]

must... vote.... comedy... option....

I liked the idea of affecting numbers of locks without chance mechanics (and never getting down to 0) more.

[Durzel]

Reduce cycle time. It's what, 20 seconds right now? Make it 5 or 10 seconds and make the module last longer than the jam.

This doesn't sound like a bad comprimise, though I don't know if it would be worse to see a lock just about to resolve and suddenly DENIED than just mashing the lock button and seeing a million "Notify You are already managing 0 targets, as many as your ship's electronics are capable of." lines in the combat log.

[Suitonia]

I voted 'good call' in regards to killing yourself, not because this is a good thread. HTH.

[Xiang Jiao]

TL;DR - ECM is fine as is, buff the other EWAR.

[Knight7]

Random thought here - what if ECM was altered in the way the OP described, or maybe just reduced sig radius of the ship it's on, but also reduced the speed of the ship using it?