Goons something something 5 trillion

[Daneel Trevize]

lets say CCP have 50 people testing the game for 10 hours a day. over say a month, that's only 15500 hours (these hypothetical icelanders get no time off until they pay back their debts to the UK)

once the patch goes live, 50k people will hit their testing time in about 30 minutes. it's impossible to fully player-proof a change to the game unless you a) spend years and years on it or b) 'open-beta' style the proposed changes. even then you won't have nearly enough testing.

so less CCP hate (i know, i know :FHC and more 'this is what happens to every game dev since forever'.

Yes but in the first 30mins of dev testing, they've covered 90% of what the TQ lot will have 'tested' too, aka the most simply common use cases. 10,000 man-hours later they should have worked out the edge cases. And as has been said, they didn't need to fully player-proof it, just read the fucking test forum feedback where their job was done for them.

[Madner Kami]

lets say CCP have 50 people testing the game for 10 hours a day. over say a month, that's only 15500 hours (these hypothetical icelanders get no time off until they pay back their debts to the UK)

once the patch goes live, 50k people will hit their testing time in about 30 minutes. it's impossible to fully player-proof a change to the game unless you a) spend years and years on it or b) 'open-beta' style the proposed changes. even then you won't have nearly enough testing.

so less CCP hate (i know, i know :FHC and more 'this is what happens to every game dev since forever'.

Your argumentation completley falls apart at exactly that point, where someone pointed out this very problem in a testserver feedback thread. You don't need thousands of manhours to find a predicted and spelled out problem. You need one person to change a few numbers in a log-file or, alternatively, one person with a couple of slim-clients to emulate the predicted behaviour (and shorten the update cycles for the calculations).

[Tarkis]

I've seen lots of "feedback thread" thrown around. Can someone post a link please?

[DevilDude]

lets say CCP have 50 people testing the game for 10 hours a day. over say a month, that's only 15500 hours (these hypothetical icelanders get no time off until they pay back their debts to the UK)

once the patch goes live, 50k people will hit their testing time in about 30 minutes. it's impossible to fully player-proof a change to the game unless you a) spend years and years on it or b) 'open-beta' style the proposed changes. even then you won't have nearly enough testing.

so less CCP hate (i know, i know :FHC and more 'this is what happens to every game dev since forever'.

Your argumentation completley falls apart at exactly that point, where someone pointed out this very problem in a testserver feedback thread. You don't need thousands of manhours to find a predicted and spelled out problem. You need one person to change a few numbers in a log-file or, alternatively, one person with a couple of slim-clients to emulate the predicted behaviour (and shorten the update cycles for the calculations).

I'm going to quote myself to demonstrate the problem with the testing argument here:

I’ll try to frame a simplified illustration of how this works and what’s wrong with it.

• Widgets are output by the system for a value of X
• Widgets can be input back into the system but don't have a fixed input value.
• Players using the system can change the input value of widgets via actions outside the system.

The set of rules above basically approximate the current FW Payout system, it’s pretty easy to see what will happen, especially given the incentives involved.

The current FW payout system is inherently unstable, because its output can be manipulated into input for greater returns. This is fairly obvious now, but professional game designers should be able to spot this in a second. There are different solutions; one would be to assign a static value to items either globally or to those available from the LP stores based on their LP value, doing so would eliminate market manipulation so there wouldn’t be any payout discreapancy, but it would probably act to fix prices; another would be to assign a diminishing return value on LP earned per 24 hour period, say 100% the first 100k and halving each subsequent 100k, that could curb alt farming significantly by itself. (I put it as high as 100k in order to account for massive kills such as freighters or maybe supercaps so as not to punish pilots for getting really really lucky. Even at 100k a day it’d take you months to build up really stupid amounts of LP)

Basically, this wasn't a failure in testing. The problem wouldn't be caught in QA because the code actually worked properly. The problem lies in designing an open ended system, whose basic equation can be manipulated to the point where it outputs X=X+Y wherein Y is anything you want it to be. They literally designed a system with no check whatsoever on runaway output. I’m not entirely sure if they knew this was possible, (if not they need to hire some game theorists) but what I do know is that the flaw wasn’t in the code; it was in the brain of whoever came up with this whole idea.

[Vortex]

It's not against the EULA therefore no one will be getting banned for it. Oh darn, you get your trillions of isk taken away, here let me feel sorry for you for a second. It's their game and they will do this because people, although making a huge stink of it, will still keep their subs going.

I don't think anyone, the goons included, ever thought they'd get away with it. CCP must 100% absolutely step in to keep the game in balance and the FW LPs actually meaning something. I feel slightly sympathetic to the goons, in the "well played nice try" sense, but I'm not losing any sleep over CCP stepping in. Its just that they had to step in, in a technically non-EULA violation action, that is so crappy. Its crappy for everyone involved, for CCP for looking incompetent, for the goons for almost getting to rob the bank (and would have gotten away with it if not for those meddeling kids devs), and its bad for the playerbase because it spawns 10 page threads (on the plus side, EVE drama is part of EVE's charm). I never claimed this would impact subs, not sure where you are going there.

I don't know why you're defending CCP here, this is 100% their fault for their derptastic game design.

So if goons, or indeed any player, hadn't specifically set out to exploit the system, you're saying this whole thing wouldn't have happened?

The thought processes of morons fascinate me.

Don't go full retard mate.

[Nartek]

this very problem in a testserver feedback... ...find a predicted and spelled out problem.

...demonstrate the problem with the testing argument here:

...The problem wouldn't be caught in QA... The problem lies in designing...

The PROBLEM is that a group of people identified an exploit with the system.

The same group of people notified (possibly? maybe? Bjork?) CCP of the exploit, and (supposedly) wrote how it could be exploited.

The same group of people then felt justified in using the exploit that they are claiming to have identified in testing.

If they were doing it to prove a point, then they should stop bitching.

If they were doing it to game the system, with an exploit that they identified... then they should stop bitching.

Sure, CCP didn't patch that hole. Whoopty Fucking Do...

If you're doing something you know is an exploit (because you already identified it as such, right?), then...

YOUR FUCKING EXPLOITING. Goons losing 5Trillion because they managed to cheat the system is the issue. CCP not fixing the problem isn't.
It isn't like they went - "oh, whoops, well, that turned out better than I expected, I'll keep that to myself and keep it to myself, just to get ahead..."

They went "HAY GUIS WE FOUND A 'SPLOIT, AND POSTED ABOUT IT, BUT CCP DIDN'T RESPOND TO xXxXIloveCatsinhatsXxXx's POST SO LETS ALL GET UP IN THIS MOTHERFUCKER AND RAPE THE FUCK OUT OF THE SYSTEM FOR LULZ LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOooooooh wait, WHY IS ALL MY FUKEN ISK GONE? RAAAAGE!!!!!!!!111!"...

See, that's a bit of a problem

Scratch that. That's the real problem...

Not that they discovered it in testing
Not that they didn't tell CCP.
Hell, it isn't even a problem that CCP didn't fix it. (for the purposes of this thread, you want to bitch about open ended systems and game theory, start a new thread and see how far it goes before +1)

It's that the same group who ID'd the fault used the fault in a manner that can only be considered "excessive", then want to wring their hands and whine when all their shit starts disappearing for it.

Take your fucking lumps and get on with it. Christ.

[DevilDude]

this very problem in a testserver feedback... ...find a predicted and spelled out problem.

...demonstrate the problem with the testing argument here:

...The problem wouldn't be caught in QA... The problem lies in designing...

The PROBLEM is that a group of people identified an exploit with the system.

The same group of people notified (possibly? maybe? Bjork?) CCP of the exploit, and (supposedly) wrote how it could be exploited.

The same group of people then felt justified in using the exploit that they are claiming to have identified in testing.

If they were doing it to prove a point, then they should stop bitching.

If they were doing it to game the system, with an exploit that they identified... then they should stop bitching.

Sure, CCP didn't patch that hole. Whoopty Fucking Do...

If you're doing something you know is an exploit (because you already identified it as such, right?), then...

YOUR FUCKING EXPLOITING. Goons losing 5Trillion because they managed to cheat the system is the issue. CCP not fixing the problem isn't.
It isn't like they went - "oh, whoops, well, that turned out better than I expected, I'll keep that to myself and keep it to myself, just to get ahead..."

They went "HAY GUIS WE FOUND A 'SPLOIT, AND POSTED ABOUT IT, BUT CCP DIDN'T RESPOND TO xXxXIloveCatsinhatsXxXx's POST SO LETS ALL GET UP IN THIS MOTHERFUCKER AND RAPE THE FUCK OUT OF THE SYSTEM FOR LULZ LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOooooooh wait, WHY IS ALL MY FUKEN ISK GONE? RAAAAGE!!!!!!!!111!"...

See, that's a bit of a problem

Scratch that. That's the real problem...

Not that they discovered it in testing
Not that they didn't tell CCP.
Hell, it isn't even a problem that CCP didn't fix it. (for the purposes of this thread, you want to bitch about open ended systems and game theory, start a new thread and see how far it goes before +1)

It's that the same group who ID'd the fault used the fault in a manner that can only be considered "excessive", then want to wring their hands and whine when all their shit starts disappearing for it.

Take your fucking lumps and get on with it. Christ.

actually, the problem as I see it, is CCP building an obvious exploit into their intended mechanic and not even having the basic grasp of game design to know what they're doing, and then every aspie retard who's ever been internet wronged by the ebil goonswarm blaming it on them as if every major entity on the server hasn't done something as bad or worse, all the while not holding CCP accountable for their continued inability to do anything right.

[AmaNutin]

blah blah endless back and forth debate no one wants to say they were wrong shit continues +1

[Mike deVoid]

I'm wrong and so is my wife

[Plutonian]

I am always wrong.

[elmicker]

I don't know why you're defending CCP here, this is 100% their fault for their derptastic game design.

So if goons, or indeed any player, hadn't specifically set out to exploit the system, you're saying this whole thing wouldn't have happened?

The thought processes of morons fascinate me.

Don't go full retard mate.

You're the one who said it's "100% CCP's fault" when it quite clearly isn't. If calling you a moron for that makes me a full retard, what does that make you?

Yes, CCP clearly were partially at fault, but it's their game, their rules and the goons clearly knew what they were doing was against the spirit of the rules (if not the precise letter), so for anyone to sit there and complain about CCP preventing them from ruining the LP market and FW Sov levels for the next three years, blaming CCP for the whole thing, as if the goons in question are some hard done by innocent bystanders being persecuted by antagonistic devs looking to save face is just fucking stupid.

[Plutonian]

I don't know why you're defending CCP here, this is 100% their fault for their derptastic game design.

So if goons, or indeed any player, hadn't specifically set out to exploit the system, you're saying this whole thing wouldn't have happened?

The thought processes of morons fascinate me.

Don't go full retard mate.

You're the one who said it's "100% CCP's fault" when it quite clearly isn't. If calling you a moron for that makes me a full retard, what does that make you?

Yes, CCP clearly were partially at fault, but it's their game, their rules and the goons clearly knew what they were doing was against the spirit of the rules (if not the precise letter), so for anyone to sit there and complain about CCP preventing them from ruining the LP market and FW Sov levels for the next three years, blaming CCP for the whole thing, as if the goons in question are some hard done by innocent bystanders being persecuted by antagonistic devs looking to save face is just fucking stupid.

I don't think anyone is considering the players involved as innocent bystanders. I doubt they would consider themselves as such (they are, after all, well... Goons).

My dog isn't supposed to leave the yard and terrorize the neighborhood. Thus, I keep the gate to the backyard closed. If I should ever leave it open by accident, and he gets out, I really can't blame the dog. I'd have to blame myself (while picking up their trashcans and getting their cats out of trees).

How about this angle: Given the sociopathic nature of Eve players, CCP was foolish to leave any opening a player could exploit.

[Lochiel]

I lost track. Has CCP taken any action other than seizing the assets of a single Goon, out of the 6 who perpetrated this?

[DevilDude]

I lost track. Has CCP taken any action other than seizing the assets of a single Goon, out of the 6 who perpetrated this?

no, and it's doubtful that they will, since there was no eula violation the only real action they're justified in is resetting the economic damage as best they can. If they go any farther they'll probably end up dealing with a real goon threadnaught and they don't want another one of those.

[Lochiel]

So this thread has turned into a bunch of ppl whining about something CCP hasn't done, and a bunch of people white knighting CCP for something they haven't done. Gotcha.

Check out my +1.

[Sponk]

since there was no eula violation the only real action they're justified in is resetting the economic damage as best they can.

I know a way.

Say 'congratulations', take all the stuff and isk and LP, and credit them with extra months of subscription. What's 5 trillion isk get? 850 years of subs?

[Rakshasa The Cat]

no, and it's doubtful that they will, since there was no eula violation the only real action they're justified in is resetting the economic damage as best they can. If they go any farther they'll probably end up dealing with a real goon threadnaught and they don't want another one of those.

Pretty sure it comes under the part about gaining shit at "accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play", they basically got everything anyone could imagine being borderline covered by that.

So fuck off with the 'not against EULA', cause they wrote it so broad that they can always crack down on fucktards if they so decide.

[Lallante]

I love how people have just invented this whole bullshit "GOONS TOLD CCP ABOUT IT IN THE TESTING THREAD" story that is complete nonsense.

No.

Noone even bugrepported it.

The sole post people are referring to is in a HUGE megathread where one guy gos "Inb4 you can artificially boost the value of a never-used mod and then farm LPs" or something equally trivial and flippant.

Its hardly suprising that CCP didn't immediately launch a fullscale internal inquiry into whether this was possible.

[smagd]

So, CCP seems to have some monitors in place to catch botters.

But if something that hasn't been sold in any kind of quantity for literally YEARS suddenly gets billions of sales, there are no signals?

I mean, a thing like that would probably have found the Pax Amarria thing, too.

[Demption]

I love how people have just invented this whole bullshit "GOONS TOLD CCP ABOUT IT IN THE TESTING THREAD" story that is complete nonsense.

No.

Noone even bugrepported it.

no one even bugreported it?