v0v she could use the money for something more important than pixels.Originally Posted by Nooby
Toatly not just gonna run away with most of the money. (if she got any brains half ass a view videos then claim constant harassment or some shit and have some nice cash)
I'm not surprised that a man would think this way.
Mine never change. It's all the same on every post in every thread.i would actually argue that we are changing the world. my post count is different to what it was before this thread.Um... why else would anyone argue about anything on an internet forum? We aren't exactly changing the world, one thread at a time.
Coming soon(tm).
<3 Entrox.
Breast implants to look like Lara Croft?v0v she could use the money for something more important than pixels.Toatly not just gonna run away with most of the money. (if she got any brains half ass a view videos then claim constant harassment or some shit and have some nice cash)
I'm not surprised that a man would think this way.
Toatly not just gonna run away with most of the money. (if she got any brains half ass a view videos then claim constant harassment or some shit and have some nice cash)
I'm not surprised that a man would think this way.
I'm not surprised that a man hater would think this way.
So do bad ones.Strongly worded OPs generate fiercer debate.
:derpatalk:
Bad@tanks
Maybe if she really wants to be all activist about perhaps something that involes real life?Breast implants to look like Lara Croft?v0v she could use the money for something more important than pixels.Toatly not just gonna run away with most of the money. (if she got any brains half ass a view videos then claim constant harassment or some shit and have some nice cash)
I'm not surprised that a man would think this way.
Too bad your strategy will just further convince the people who are wrong that they are right instead of improving their critical thinking skills.
Why? Are we not able to attack a problem from multiple angles at the same time? "Why are we worrying about equal pay for women when there is oppression in country X?"
Status of Babby: 100% Formed
Why are we worrying about womens rights when we should be fixing lag????
I tried to be cool and all I got was a lousy warning about my sig being too big.
Granted that I am not going to defuse anything at all, but I do believe that those who really tick me off are far beyond proper reasoning anyway. I do admire some of the older generation feminists, some of which also commented on the modern feminist generation as being a "huge step backwards for feminism".Too bad your strategy will just further convince the people who are wrong that they are right instead of improving their critical thinking skills.
Why? Are we not able to attack a problem from multiple angles at the same time? "Why are we worrying about equal pay for women when there is oppression in country X?"
But this again is far beyond the scope of misoginy in videogames. As for me, I never enjoyed videogames with a massive reality check. I prefer my games to be as detached from real life as possible, because games. This will inevitably include female avatars at some point and so far I have never seen a designer who just went "Ah fuck it, lets make the protagonist ugly as sin and then hit the face with a smudge tool repeatedly", no matter the industry. Most game creators have to make a profit out of the product (how would you like to work for free? how do you feed your family or yourself?) and this influences the whole thing from the bottom level upward. Your average modern game attempts to cater to as wide a spectrum of humanity as possible. Bigger target audience equals higher theoretical profits. An exemption would be niche games or specifically targeted games for distinct groups/markets. Also I am getting tired of writing this, as it is currently fucking hot in here and I cannot open my windows today, so screw documentaries, I'ma go and have a cold shower and a beer.
That seems like a very petulant and juvenile perspective on life. Eye for an eye sounds like a solid philosophical framework to base your life on until you hit puberty and most people start thinking with their brains, and realize how dumb it is.Not a defence of my views since I believe that I am not going to change my point of view on that, but an accurate assessment of why we're talking in circles anyway.So you have a warped understanding of what it means to be a feminist? How is this a defence of your views exactly?
My general attitude is resting on a simple basis - eye for an eye. I choose to apply that to feminists as well. If someone tells me I have been sleeping at work while I have been slaving away for hours, I will go into ego mode and go off somewhere and do fuck all. If a feminist tries to tell me that I should go to hell because I happen to be born with a penis, I go misogenic.
On the other opposite side of the coin, as long as the whole discussion is sensible, I have absolutely no problems with that. But thats just my subjective standpoint.
If you were my employee, and you decided to go sit around pouting doing nothing as "punishment" for the person who implied you were lazy, I would have fired you in less than a second. Not because you weren't working, but because child labour is illegal.
Also, this debate is going as pretty much the exact same thread on this topic went (I remember, because I was the OP in that one). I won't try and incite more people, but I will say that those most adamantly mocking Lall, and her are people who may be good at heart but that really need to read up on this topic before setting their opinion in stone. I'm seeing a lot of flawed opinions, based on misunderstood aspects of feminism, and if you consider yourself a rational, well educated person holding these views, I am more than willing to take some time to show you to some academic resources that will help you gain some understanding about the intricacies of this topic.
If that isn't enough incentive, let me politely point out that to anyone with even the slightest background in academia, you come across no better than the stereotypical redneck does to a middle class working man.
Feminism at its core is the belief that men and women should be equal. The issue at hand with female characterization in video games isn't due to them being less interesting or even (to an extent) having less depth than the male characters, but a simple matter of agency. (A term used to denote the involvement and/or influence a character has on his or her situation/environment. Modern example that is frequently used is Avatar. Watch the movie again and see if the Na'vi (or the princess if you want to get specific) ever have any effect on the world around them or the situation they are in. You'll find none, as Jake Sully is the only with any sense of agency. An older academic example is Pulp Fiction, where the character with the highest agency is never actually seen in the movie. Namely, Tarantino's character's black wife.).
Even in the games where females aren't fundamentally simplified to a simple mesh of tits, ass and sultry seduction voice there is a long standing history of them having absolutely no agency in the game world.
Anyway, it's very hard to have a discussion about this if people aren't willing to get their understanding up to an acceptable level, just as it would be impossible for a physicist to discuss quantum mechanics with someone who's never heard the word but gets very angry about it for no discernible reason. v0v
This same argument can easily be applied to racism in movies.
Status of Babby: 100% Formed
Funny enough, I started acting like that long after I left my puberty behind me. I came to the realization that my life is not going to be long enough to cater to everybodys personal whims and if someone treats me like a retard, I do not have to kiss his ass, nor turn the other cheek for it. Also, I wouldnt apply for a job where my superior would accuse me of crap I did not do in the first place as I enjoy being in a professional environment.That seems like a very petulant and juvenile perspective on life. Eye for an eye sounds like a solid philosophical framework to base your life on until you hit puberty and most people start thinking with their brains, and realize how dumb it is.Not a defence of my views since I believe that I am not going to change my point of view on that, but an accurate assessment of why we're talking in circles anyway.So you have a warped understanding of what it means to be a feminist? How is this a defence of your views exactly?
My general attitude is resting on a simple basis - eye for an eye. I choose to apply that to feminists as well. If someone tells me I have been sleeping at work while I have been slaving away for hours, I will go into ego mode and go off somewhere and do fuck all. If a feminist tries to tell me that I should go to hell because I happen to be born with a penis, I go misogenic.
On the other opposite side of the coin, as long as the whole discussion is sensible, I have absolutely no problems with that. But thats just my subjective standpoint.
If you were my employee, and you decided to go sit around pouting doing nothing as "punishment" for the person who implied you were lazy, I would have fired you in less than a second. Not because you weren't working, but because child labour is illegal.
Also, this debate is going as pretty much the exact same thread on this topic went (I remember, because I was the OP in that one). I won't try and incite more people, but I will say that those most adamantly mocking Lall, and her are people who may be good at heart but that really need to read up on this topic before setting their opinion in stone. I'm seeing a lot of flawed opinions, based on misunderstood aspects of feminism, and if you consider yourself a rational, well educated person holding these views, I am more than willing to take some time to show you to some academic resources that will help you gain some understanding about the intricacies of this topic.
If that isn't enough incentive, let me politely point out that to anyone with even the slightest background in academia, you come across no better than the stereotypical redneck does to a middle class working man.
Feminism at its core is the belief that men and women should be equal. The issue at hand with female characterization in video games isn't due to them being less interesting or even (to an extent) having less depth than the male characters, but a simple matter of agency. (A term used to denote the involvement and/or influence a character has on his or her situation/environment. Modern example that is frequently used is Avatar. Watch the movie again and see if the Na'vi (or the princess if you want to get specific) ever have any effect on the world around them or the situation they are in. You'll find none, as Jake Sully is the only with any sense of agency. An older academic example is Pulp Fiction, where the character with the highest agency is never actually seen in the movie. Namely, Tarantino's character's black wife.).
Even in the games where females aren't fundamentally simplified to a simple mesh of tits, ass and sultry seduction voice there is a long standing history of them having absolutely no agency in the game world.
Anyway, it's very hard to have a discussion about this if people aren't willing to get their understanding up to an acceptable level, just as it would be impossible for a physicist to discuss quantum mechanics with someone who's never heard the word but gets very angry about it for no discernible reason. v0v
Still good post.
...no. Though these are not problems men don't also suffer from, there is considerably more prejudice and stereotyping that targets women than men, and this is particularly true in the videogames sphere. This makes it a more ripe area for examination. Do you honestly disagree?So wait women are weaker? Ok glad we got that one out of the waylol. And freedom is slavery, war is peace etc.
So, given that this video project is eminently sensible and not in any way a rant against men, you are in support of it? Why didn't you say so on page one?Not a defence of my views since I believe that I am not going to change my point of view on that, but an accurate assessment of why we're talking in circles anyway.So you have a warped understanding of what it means to be a feminist? How is this a defence of your views exactly?
My general attitude is resting on a simple basis - eye for an eye. I choose to apply that to feminists as well. If someone tells me I have been sleeping at work while I have been slaving away for hours, I will go into ego mode and go off somewhere and do fuck all. If a feminist tries to tell me that I should go to hell because I happen to be born with a penis, I go misogenic.
On the other opposite side of the coin, as long as the whole discussion is sensible, I have absolutely no problems with that. But thats just my subjective standpoint.
Communism at its core is the belief that everyone should be equal
Also, your first link is broken.
WoT: Mike_Hammer
Tanks are like Pokemon, gotta collect 'em all.....
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer
The tone of this thread was put in the shitter from the first post and it's certainly not moved in 7 pages. If people want a serious discussion, I think it will probably have to take the form of a new thread.
interesting topic, good initiative
however
I'll be damned if I started reading the discussion connected to it now B)
Your entire first paragraph under "View" was a No True Scotsman argument, shut the fuck up.Hey heres a strawman with a side of sweeping generalisation. Trivialising sexism is pathetic - either you don't care (fair enough, so don't post) or you do care and are attempting to trivialise it because you are sexist yourself.I imagine so since everyone knows that being even slightly misogynistic makes you Hitler and you deserve to die in a special hell for retards because you are demonstrably a badman
Feminists are exempt from the above rule, naturally
Otherwise, I agree with OP
Parasite Eve
Resident Evil
Perfect Dark
Final Fantasy (VI, X come to mind)
Tomb Raider (for as outsized as Lara's breasts may be she's still the main character and has agency)
The entire fighting game genre (everybody is a stereotype and has equal agency)
Alpha Centauri
Prototype (several of the power players are women)
.... off the top of my head
Are we going to get in to some theory debate about affirmative action?at least 50% of all games must feature female main characters with significant agency?
What about games like Modern Warfare which accurately reflect that combat units of that sort are 100% or near 100% male?
And if you're going to complain BOTH about the "helpless princess" AND "Badass heroine" tropes what exactly is this fabled.middleground that's acceptable?
Men get the wussy bard, mysterious assassin, and uncouth barbarian stereotypes.
Earlier it was claimed that male characters are routinely better developed (more "3 dimensional") than female.characters who are flat stereotypes... I submit for argument that the claim is false and insofar as character development is concerned, particularly with more recent games, males and female personality, and agency, are roughly equivalent, granted that there are more male lead characters.
(Submit as false as in I'd like to see evidence to back this claim)
In effect my response is that ALL video game characters have equally troped development and to convince me this is a genuine issue you'd need to demonstrate that females are _more_ so than males.
I tried to be cool and all I got was a lousy warning about my sig being too big.
I'm not saying that women aren't "exploited" more than men in games but there are plenty of examples of good games and not-so-good games with interesting, multidimensional and powerful female characters, off the top of my head we have
Nicole Collard of Broken Sword
Jade of Beyond Good and Evil
Kate of Syberia
Bastilla Shan of KOTOR
Kreia of KOTOR 2
Alyx Vance of Half Life
Karen Sjet of Homeworld (arguable, most of her character depth is in the background fluff)
I'm sure there are others.
A list of deep, interesting male characters in games might be twice as long or so as an exhaustive list of "good" female characters but considering the amount of male gamers compared to female gamers isn't that a fairly progressive ratio?
Of course there are games like Tera hypersexualising everything but that's an aesthetic and ultimately I think a developer/ artist has the right to make what he or she wants to make.
Tarms point about racism in movies is pretty interesting, A character in a movie who is racist but also has redeeming qualities is a good, deep, interesting and perhaps likeable character despite his racism. Compare Jaime Lannister and his incest relationship in Game of Thrones, even though incest is horrible and apalling in this society and rightly so, he's still a likeable character, why can't you have that with racism or sexism?
In fact a character with a little of of misogyny, racism or whatever would be a realistic character as well as an interesting one.
not sure what my point is now, just came into my head.
oh edit: hey Tyrus
Last edited by Paradox; June 20 2012 at 04:43:14 PM.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks