Tropes vs. Women in Video Games Controversy

[lt]

TL;DR

Lallante is a good troll.

He's not trolling he genuinely enjoys creating a debate position that's defined to enable him to win, and then sit and watch the waves crash against the wall he's created.

It's an incredibly powerful debating tactic if your opponent accepts how define the debate framework. In this case he threw up such a large number of strawmen that he's defined nearly every conceivable counter argument (legit or not) is already solidly covered under a single label he's defined as "unacceptablex.

He can sit and respond to anybody he's "defined out of the debate" with no trouble because nobody challenges the framework of the issue

Note, for example, the lack of response to the point that males are similarly ridiculously unrealistic in video games. The only possibly response is that its a continuation of the "male fantasy' whichwould require (1)because claiming women aren't gamers (a bad response became a negative definition of women is defined as misogny) or (2) that video games simply aren't realistic, which defeats the purpose of exploring tropes as minstereotyping only women.

And now you are trying to push anyone that disagree with you in a corner.

Let's instead ask why that matter when it comes to women in games? Does two wrong make a right?
Or we could ask, how does those male and female stereotypes affect people? Is there a difference on male and female stereotypes, why is that and what effect does that have on females and males playing? And are those good/bad? Are there perhaps more stereotypes that are "good" for male characters than for females?

You've proposed a totally different study though that might be legitimate. The point is that questioning a study which only focuses on a subset of that is not inherently.misogynistic especially when you can easily find reasons to study the much wider phenomenon of stereotyping and tropes in video games without the need for the gender bias.

Leave it to lall m8, you lost the argument in the first response by admitting the worth of a less-one-sidded look at the issue

I was just pointing out that your only options were not the only options. Also, that there is a case for a wider study does not invalidate the first study.

[Frug]

Oh this thread was bound to show off FHC's finest.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Claiming that women need more support/study of the issues or are somehow more liable to be insulted by stereotypes is misogynistic in itself.

Boom.

[Varcaus]

Can we get to equal fights in this thread yet? Please? That's always ends well.

[Frug]

Yep. FHC's finest.

[filingo]

An example that might be worth debating. I'm becoming good friends with a girl I met a few weeks ago. She used to do (and I hope she does again) stand up comedy. She is a very funny person, she is very intelligent and I have a blast with her. But she told me of her attempts at stand up, particularly when she would get into very "female" topics. Talking about female sexuality, in a funny manner, and she'd get a good laugh out of it, especially from women. But then men would become very uncomfortable and sort of look strangely at their girlfriends and wives, and the place would get very quiet. That's a very subtle and dangerous form of misogyny.

Is it though? It may be, I'm not saying it's not, but talking about a comedian splitting the room with their material and then standing back and acting like the male contingent of the audience should damn well laugh anyway even if they don't "get" what's being said seems.. odd, perhaps even feminist. If a comedian(enne) alienates their audience with their material they're probably just a shit (or at least unobservant) comedian, irrespective of their gender.

You could make the counter argument that female comedians don't do their "women not being funny" stereotype any favours by grabbing the low hanging fruit that is "so men eh ladies?". Stereotyping begets stereotyping.

Ok. First off where did I say she said, "so men eh ladies?" Her routine was about female sexuality, not about dicks and pussy. And even if it was about dicks and pussy, lots of comedians make a lot of money based on that. Not very good comedians, but they do make money on it.

Secondly, Dara O'Briain does a routine on computer games, and states at the outset that half the audience simply will not get his jokes. This is because people don't play computer games. If we take it that 10% of the population is gay, and half of them are lesbians, that means 95% of the population (at least at comedy gigs) would have an idea of issues relating to female sexuality. They're either female themselves, or their banging a woman.

But again, your immediate response is to say, "She's not funny, she's just alienating her audience." She is funny, I've met her, she has made many people laugh, she has won awards for her comedy. And alienating your audience really is the crux of the issue. Why should talking about something specific to half the world directly, and the other half of the word indirectly be something that's alienating.

you come across as someone who argues for the sake of arguing

and for the sake of arguing, it is down to each persons taste what is funny so i don't think you can really quantify someone as "funny" or "not funny" when its an entirely subjective thing. bit like marmite.

[Hatepeace Lovewar]

my quote

That is exactly the problem with the culture, just because it is dominated by men doesn't mean we should treat the other gender with disrespect. Maybe it is my upbringing but I have always been taught to respect people and not judging based on gender or racial pre-established stereotypes. That said I find boob jokes as funny as penis jokes which is not at all. Which might not make me one of the guys, but I don't hang out with people like that in the first place.

The reason of oh it's just a guy thing or oh it's just a joke is as stable argument as a table with two legs, give a nudge against it and it topples over.

If you want more women to enter the industry, there needs to be the opportunity for a work environment in which people feel respected. If they don't they will not suffer countless misogynistic viewpoints and stay there to try and make a change. The industry itself needs to change to allow it. That means going against the stream, which is the only way to get change.

Now if you wish to have an argument about gender equality I would also recommend to stop refering to men and women as females and males. Although we may be animals we are not barbaric. We are all people able to reason logically if given the opportunity and allowing ourselves the understanding.

Fuck you are terrible, I think I actually shuddered when reading your last paragraph.

I said in my post that the industry will change as more females become part of it.

You might be a perfect upstanding citizen with an impressive ability to vommit politically correct akwardness all over every one, but the rest of the population probably are not and as such they might say stuff that will cause offense to another section of it, especially when they think that section are not around.

I think any one who thinks this women standing up and saying 'Do you mind guys?' isn't the natural reaction needs their head looking at, equally however I wouldn't lambast the guys making the jokes in the first place, so long as they learn their lesson.

[Lallante]

Claiming that women need more support/study of the issues or are somehow more liable to be insulted by stereotypes is misogynistic in itself.

Boom.

lol. And freedom is slavery, war is peace etc.

[Lallante]

you come across as someone who argues for the sake of arguing

Um... why else would anyone argue about anything on an internet forum? We aren't exactly changing the world, one thread at a time.

[Traxio Nacho]

An example that might be worth debating. I'm becoming good friends with a girl I met a few weeks ago. She used to do (and I hope she does again) stand up comedy. She is a very funny person, she is very intelligent and I have a blast with her. But she told me of her attempts at stand up, particularly when she would get into very "female" topics. Talking about female sexuality, in a funny manner, and she'd get a good laugh out of it, especially from women. But then men would become very uncomfortable and sort of look strangely at their girlfriends and wives, and the place would get very quiet. That's a very subtle and dangerous form of misogyny.

Is it though? It may be, I'm not saying it's not, but talking about a comedian splitting the room with their material and then standing back and acting like the male contingent of the audience should damn well laugh anyway even if they don't "get" what's being said seems.. odd, perhaps even feminist. If a comedian(enne) alienates their audience with their material they're probably just a shit (or at least unobservant) comedian, irrespective of their gender.

You could make the counter argument that female comedians don't do their "women not being funny" stereotype any favours by grabbing the low hanging fruit that is "so men eh ladies?". Stereotyping begets stereotyping.

Ok. First off where did I say she said, "so men eh ladies?" Her routine was about female sexuality, not about dicks and pussy. And even if it was about dicks and pussy, lots of comedians make a lot of money based on that. Not very good comedians, but they do make money on it.

Secondly, Dara O'Briain does a routine on computer games, and states at the outset that half the audience simply will not get his jokes. This is because people don't play computer games. If we take it that 10% of the population is gay, and half of them are lesbians, that means 95% of the population (at least at comedy gigs) would have an idea of issues relating to female sexuality. They're either female themselves, or their banging a woman.

But again, your immediate response is to say, "She's not funny, she's just alienating her audience." She is funny, I've met her, she has made many people laugh, she has won awards for her comedy. And alienating your audience really is the crux of the issue. Why should talking about something specific to half the world directly, and the other half of the word indirectly be something that's alienating.

you come across as someone who argues for the sake of arguing

and for the sake of arguing, it is down to each persons taste what is funny so i don't think you can really quantify someone as "funny" or "not funny" when its an entirely subjective thing. bit like marmite.

I have to say I preferred his posting when he was Buceph

[Varcaus]

Claiming that women need more support/study of the issues or are somehow more liable to be insulted by stereotypes is misogynistic in itself.

Boom.

lol. And freedom is slavery, war is peace etc.

So wait women are weaker? Ok glad we got that one out of the way

[Devec]

my quote

That is exactly the problem with the culture, just because it is dominated by men doesn't mean we should treat the other gender with disrespect. Maybe it is my upbringing but I have always been taught to respect people and not judging based on gender or racial pre-established stereotypes. That said I find boob jokes as funny as penis jokes which is not at all. Which might not make me one of the guys, but I don't hang out with people like that in the first place.

The reason of oh it's just a guy thing or oh it's just a joke is as stable argument as a table with two legs, give a nudge against it and it topples over.

If you want more women to enter the industry, there needs to be the opportunity for a work environment in which people feel respected. If they don't they will not suffer countless misogynistic viewpoints and stay there to try and make a change. The industry itself needs to change to allow it. That means going against the stream, which is the only way to get change.

Now if you wish to have an argument about gender equality I would also recommend to stop refering to men and women as females and males. Although we may be animals we are not barbaric. We are all people able to reason logically if given the opportunity and allowing ourselves the understanding.

Fuck you are terrible, I think I actually shuddered when reading your last paragraph.

I said in my post that the industry will change as more females become part of it.

You might be a perfect upstanding citizen with an impressive ability to vommit politically correct akwardness all over every one, but the rest of the population probably are not and as such they might say stuff that will cause offense to another section of it, especially when they think that section are not around.

I think any one who thinks this women standing up and saying 'Do you mind guys?' isn't the natural reaction needs their head looking at, equally however I wouldn't lambast the guys making the jokes in the first place, so long as they learn their lesson.

If you think that being political correct is the same as not being a massive cunt then I'm guessing that arguing with you is a waste of time.

You might disagree with me but putting up strawmen just for the sake of being afraid to be proven wrong is weak.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

you come across as someone who argues for the sake of arguing

Um... why else would anyone argue about anything on an internet forum? We aren't exactly changing the world, one thread at a time.

All of my illusions shattered.

Next you'll tell me Santa Claus isn't real.

[filingo]

you come across as someone who argues for the sake of arguing

Um... why else would anyone argue about anything on an internet forum? We aren't exactly changing the world, one thread at a time.

i would actually argue that we are changing the world. my post count is different to what it was before this thread.

[Chrien]

This is like being in a gender studies class except the people being total and utter bitches are male.

[56k Lagman]

Fuck that noise in the op and fuck all your noise

[James Snowscoran]

Nice thread and good kickstarter link. Will be very interested in seeing what she gets out of her project.

[Blutreiter]

I think we need to realize that you and me are obviously treating the term "feminist" with different meanings.

For me a feminist are those radical females who are mostly just disguising their personal hatred of men in general with a politically correct facade, whereas you view feminists as all women who fight for equality.

So you have a warped understanding of what it means to be a feminist? How is this a defence of your views exactly?

Not a defence of my views since I believe that I am not going to change my point of view on that, but an accurate assessment of why we're talking in circles anyway.

My general attitude is resting on a simple basis - eye for an eye. I choose to apply that to feminists as well. If someone tells me I have been sleeping at work while I have been slaving away for hours, I will go into ego mode and go off somewhere and do fuck all. If a feminist tries to tell me that I should go to hell because I happen to be born with a penis, I go misogenic.

On the other opposite side of the coin, as long as the whole discussion is sensible, I have absolutely no problems with that. But thats just my subjective standpoint.

[Varcaus]

Nice thread and good kickstarter link. Will be very interested in seeing what she gets out of her project.

Toatly not just gonna run away with most of the money. (if she got any brains half ass a view videos then claim constant harassment or some shit and have some nice cash)

[Nooby]

Nice thread and good kickstarter link. Will be very interested in seeing what she gets out of her project.

Toatly not just gonna run away with most of the money. (if she got any brains half ass a view videos then claim constant harassment or some shit and have some nice cash)

I'm not surprised that a man would think this way.