Tropes vs. Women in Video Games Controversy

[Kransthow]

  Spoiler:

I lol'd

[Frug]

One thing that hasn't come up, is how some RPG's lately have women be the baddest badasses. Like Dragon age Origins, the toughest warrior (apart from my femshepwarden) swinging a gigantic two handed sword (iirc), is a woman (the one that arrests you after you save the queen). In Skyrim, if there's a a scripted NPC fight, for instance when you walk into the Companions house for the first time, you can bet your cupcake the woman is going to beat the man.

Now I've nothing against this, but how's that for "educating" women to be violent?

More seriously, this kind of unrealistic (due to biological factors obviously) equality portrayal is now and will be the norm for some time, at least in "blockbuster" games. Is this a good thing?


Also, all hail the awesome Goddess of Badassery!

  Spoiler:

Yeah, the goddess of badassery's rare because she kicks ass without looking like a supermodel who would never be able to lift a sword (she's transgendered?). IMO it's not enough to give a female a role where she's somehow able to beat everyone if it's a completely ridiculous depiction of scantily clad supermodel physique... Which as you say is what it is in most RPGs and movies. It's better than nothing, but not by much. I wouldn't expect a 'feminist' to be satisfied with the way it's getting done. I know I find them annoying because it's just so stupid most of the time. The chick in borderlands isn't bad. They show her ass a bit but she's not completely tits and ass.

I will be sad when the goddess of badassery meets her inevitable death because ~George RR Martin~.

[Keorythe]

Sexism seems like something that will go away when the older generations start dying off. I don't think the majority of young people right now have any negative opinions on women or don't think they should be equals in society. Unless they are 15 and on XBL but they will grow out of it.

Care to explain how you came to that conclusion? The pre-GenX was all about societal and gender roles. The younger generations starting with GenX have since moved to objectifying women and have been fed a steady diet of sexualized content.

Oh and apparently, the next Lara Croft game will tell about her past including when she almost gets raped. From interviews it appears that the devs wanted the audience to root for her and make a closer bond. Chew on that one for a bit.

[Fallout]

Sexism seems like something that will go away when the older generations start dying off. I don't think the majority of young people right now have any negative opinions on women or don't think they should be equals in society. Unless they are 15 and on XBL but they will grow out of it.

Care to explain how you came to that conclusion? The pre-GenX was all about societal and gender roles. The younger generations starting with GenX have since moved to objectifying women and have been fed a steady diet of sexualized content.

Oh and apparently, the next Lara Croft game will tell about her past including when she almost gets raped. From interviews it appears that the devs wanted the audience to root for her and make a closer bond. Chew on that one for a bit.

Ive come to that conclusion because none of my friends are sexist, no one I meet in my age range (20s) are generally sexist or care about gender roles. Women are objectified in media all the time sure, but that media is mostly being produced by the previous generations stuck in that mind set. People seem pretty open to everything in my experience, since I Started university and worked at a few places.

As for the Lara Croft thing I guess that's not exactly a great reflection on video games, but rape is dramatic and its a story about a woman so its probably just there for that reason. I think you'll find there's a lot more TV shows and even shitty soaps that involve women getting raped for stupid plot points and story arcs. Its not good that this happens, but the people making the game are obviously uncreative in their efforts to find something that will be hard for the character to experience and get players to root for her more.

[Devec]

]Yeah, the goddess of badassery's rare because she kicks ass without looking like a supermodel who would never be able to lift a sword (she's transgendered?). IMO it's not enough to give a female a role where she's somehow able to beat everyone if it's a completely ridiculous depiction of scantily clad supermodel physique... Which as you say is what it is in most RPGs and movies. It's better than nothing, but not by much. I wouldn't expect a 'feminist' to be satisfied with the way it's getting done. I know I find them annoying because it's just so stupid most of the time. The chick in borderlands isn't bad. They show her ass a bit but she's not completely tits and ass.

I will be sad when the goddess of badassery meets her inevitable death because ~George RR Martin~.

Fortunately for your Georgie knows how to write good female characters. Seeing as how you probably just follow the tv series, at some point the Mormonts get a bit more focus and you are introduced to the wifes and daughters of Mormont family who are all quite badass and bear(ish).

Ive come to that conclusion because none of my friends are sexist, no one I meet in my age range (20s) are generally sexist or care about gender roles. Women are objectified in media all the time sure, but that media is mostly being produced by the previous generations stuck in that mind set. People seem pretty open to everything in my experience, since I Started university and worked at a few places.

As for the Lara Croft thing I guess that's not exactly a great reflection on video games, but rape is dramatic and its a story about a woman so its probably just there for that reason. I think you'll find there's a lot more TV shows and even shitty soaps that involve women getting raped for stupid plot points and story arcs. Its not good that this happens, but the people making the game are obviously uncreative in their efforts to find something that will be hard for the character to experience and get players to root for her more.

Seeing as how sexual differentiation is ingrained within our culture, and I'm grasping towards the colour and types of toys and hobbies that parents are supposed to subscribe I find it hard to believe that unless you spent a lot of time observing yourself and how you react to certain situations involving the different sex it is hard to grasp. Although most guys I know are completely reasonable in terms of sexism I've also known guys who to me cross the line. For example I think there is nothing wrong with looking at a good looking women. However if you stare at every girl that comes by and comment how hawt she is or not is, like you need some kind of confirmation that this person indeed looks good then you have a problem. In the end it all boils down to what kind of social circles you move in. Although I'm not big on clubbing, I've been dragged along several times by friends to random clubs and although it is not a regular sight you do sometimes see packs of guys purely hunting girls so they can add another +1 to their how many fleshy bits they've wrapped around their baby injection apparatus.

The thing with Lara Croft is that I do like that they are moving towards a more mature way of representing her. Because really there is no point in having someone who raids tombs, runs through jungles and does all acrobatic shit to be running around in hot pants. It is a sexual fantasy, which is easy to get away with because games are escapism apparently. But to be fair storytelling in mainstream games is on really low par when you compare it to movies. Movies have their big action blockbuster but there also high budget movies which have good stories, although they might not be gems they are worth going to the cinema for. For some reason the stories in games only come in standard action/fantasy format, the odd gem or indie project and the crossover is few and far in between. However this mostly has to do with the budgets games take to make and when money is involved and people do become oh so conservative on story.

That said I think it is a good step for the writers to explore more mature games because actually realistic sex and sexual relationships is uncommon in games. Rape does not have to be condemned to solely shitty soap writing, the anime Akira is one good example that comes to mind. However if they want to make Lara Croft a more mature and realistic person then they should be allowed to do that by the fans. And not start silly little flame wars about the "legacy" of the tomb raider games. Which does not at all means that they weren't good gameplay wise, they aren't some kind of holy heritage that must never be changed or tampered with.

[Frug]

Georgie writes good everything, it seems.

Ive come to that conclusion because none of my friends are sexist, no one I meet in my age range (20s) are generally sexist or care about gender roles.

I don't agree with Keorythe, we've come a long way. We're not like the middle east any more. In most affluent parts of western countries it's socially unacceptable to be openly sexist and if you grow up in a place like that your friends probably won't be overtly sexist. You can safely write off the occasional shit heads as the inevitable few bad apples.

I think it's a bad thing, though, to dust off your hands and declare it done. When people respond to women's issues with something like "they have equality now so stop whining and go away" it almost proves the opposite. There's open hostility toward the suggestion that we haven't completely solved these problems. That ain't right, man. If we were talking about some social problems affecting young nerdy guys and how they have trouble fitting in or finding social affirmation, you probably wouldn't see this kind of hostile response. You know, because we're guys and we can relate. But girls? Oh those fucking feminists need to shut up. Lets come up with examples of feminazis to prove how they're all man hating dykes. Not that we're sexist. They just need to shut up.

Also I know at least 3 guys, who are pretty good friends of mine, who are flat out sexist. It took some time, and some conversations with them, to realize it. I blame bitterness for that, but I wonder if enough 'education' could have put them down a different path. By education I mostly mean pointing out to them that most girls who wear tons of makeup and dress slutty are pitiable, confused and insecure, not just dumb attention seeking whores.... although some of them are. We've kind of trained them to do that, and then seem oblivious to why they would.

[Loire]

I feel as if in a lot of ways, many women don't help with the perception of their own rights and equality. Many want to be treated the same as men but alternatively still expect the traditional treatment from their male counterparts and I've yet to meet a girl who is adverse to using her female-unique traits to get ahead day to day. These aren't necessarily bad things, I don't personally see equal rights and paying for a girls dinner as diametrically opposed but it can create a growing sense of dissatisfaction amongst less understanding males. It's sort of the whole "Well there's no Male Lit. course" thing. Sometimes it feels as if the whole process is pushing to go beyond equality even though it isn't (yet).

[Lallante]

I feel as if in a lot of ways, many women don't help with the perception of their own rights and equality. Many want to be treated the same as men but alternatively still expect the traditional treatment from their male counterparts and I've yet to meet a girl who is adverse to using her female-unique traits to get ahead day to day. These aren't necessarily bad things, I don't personally see equal rights and paying for a girls dinner as diametrically opposed but it can create a growing sense of dissatisfaction amongst less understanding males. It's sort of the whole "Well there's no Male Lit. course" thing. Sometimes it feels as if the whole process is pushing to go beyond equality even though it isn't (yet).

I think you dont "get" equality. Why would we need a male lit course?

[Warmenhoven]

I blame bitterness for that, but I wonder if enough 'education' could have put them down a different path.

I may be misunderstanding your meaning but:

If 'bitterness' is at fault would it not be a good idea to address where that came from? Again assuming a lot here, but seeing as you're writing on a forum about internet spaceships i'm going to assume your friends are of a certain (i hesitate to say class so will go with....) demographic, which historically aren't treated very well by the opposite sex during the stages of growing up because they themselves don't conform to the (sexist) notion of what a male should be at that age. This, at least in my head, explains a lot about why gamers treat women badly, although it by no means excuses it.

[Wall]

I for one am looking forward to playing games featuring middle-aged, conservatively dressed, slightly overweight, asexual women. I've always felt that the one thing missing from modern games was more characters that look like Rachel Maddow. I can just see her, realistically-sized sword in hand, getting ready to take on the legions of the dead while her suit jacket rippling in the slight breeze.

[Tarminic]

I for one am looking forward to playing games featuring middle-aged, conservatively dressed, slightly overweight, asexual women. I've always felt that the one thing missing from modern games was more characters that look like Rachel Maddow. I can just see her, realistically-sized sword in hand, getting ready to take on the legions of the dead while her suit jacket rippling in the slight breeze.

So do you get your false dichotomies through retail or do you just buy them wholesale?

[Loire]

I feel as if in a lot of ways, many women don't help with the perception of their own rights and equality. Many want to be treated the same as men but alternatively still expect the traditional treatment from their male counterparts and I've yet to meet a girl who is adverse to using her female-unique traits to get ahead day to day. These aren't necessarily bad things, I don't personally see equal rights and paying for a girls dinner as diametrically opposed but it can create a growing sense of dissatisfaction amongst less understanding males. It's sort of the whole "Well there's no Male Lit. course" thing. Sometimes it feels as if the whole process is pushing to go beyond equality even though it isn't (yet).

I think you dont "get" equality. Why would we need a male lit course?

I don't think you "get" reading comprehension. Why would you think I was asking for a male lit. course?

[Warmenhoven]

ready to take on the legions of the dead

Come on your'e adjusting everything else to be realistic so you might as well make this bit too! Should read: "ready to take on the two or three poorly trained legionaries of the dead"

[Wall]

So do you get your false dichotomies through retail or do you just buy them wholesale?

You can't name a female character that I can't show is somehow demeaning to women.

[Frug]

If 'bitterness' is at fault would it not be a good idea to address where that came from? Again assuming a lot here, but seeing as you're writing on a forum about internet spaceships i'm going to assume your friends are of a certain (i hesitate to say class so will go with....) demographic, which historically aren't treated very well by the opposite sex during the stages of growing up because they themselves don't conform to the (sexist) notion of what a male should be at that age. This, at least in my head, explains a lot about why gamers treat women badly, although it by no means excuses it.

Not all of them fit into that category. Actually I was probably the most rejected by females and hoplessly ~forever alone~ of all of them until recently. I'm sure you're right about certain parts of the industry/gamer community but also keep in mind if we're talking about games we're talking about things aimed largely at children as well.

Speaking of children, the irony of Wall responding to an accusation of following false dichotomies by presenting another false dichotomy is absolutely golden.

[Tarminic]

So do you get your false dichotomies through retail or do you just buy them wholesale?

You can't name a female character that I can't show is somehow demeaning to women.

Nor could one do the same for a male character, bit it doesn't change the fact that it's a false dichotomy.

[Lallante]

So do you get your false dichotomies through retail or do you just buy them wholesale?

You can't name a female character that I can't show is somehow demeaning to women.

Jesus

[Lallante]

Speaking of children, the irony of Wall responding to an accusation of following false dichotomies by presenting another false dichotomy is absolutely golden.

Is it? I thought it was rather stale.

[Devec]

So do you get your false dichotomies through retail or do you just buy them wholesale?

You can't name a female character that I can't show is somehow demeaning to women.

Jesus

God had a pretty daughter and her name was Jesus

[Frug]

Is it? I thought it was rather stale.

It's cute to see him struggle, man. He's got this absolutist brain where anything more complex than one or two ideas overloads the system and gets pushed outside of his worldview. And he gets all mad because people are talking about stuff he thinks is totally wrong.

Also jesus was a black woman.