Tropes vs. Women in Video Games Controversy

[Me]

I fail to see how this whole thing is such a big issue. Someone is making a video blog, who the fuck cares? Someone is making a video blog on video games, even bigger who the fuck cares? Someone is making a video blog on sexism video games, ...

Congratulations to all the haters of this thing, without all the slerging this would've just been another circle-jerk video talking about shit everyone already knows and nobody would remember it in a few months time. Now she gets $150,000 and all this publicity, wouldn't be at all surprised if she ends up on Oprah or Helen or something.

Also fucking hell FHC, 11 pages overnight?

[Tyrus Tenebros]

As usual, the actual amount of mouthbreathing retards is overblown by the number of holier-than-thou defenders of all things good and just looking to put any possible dissent in to it's place from the high horse.

Which, as I pointed out on page 4, was the whole purpose of the way lall wrote the OP.

I certainly don't think there aren't strands of racism, misogny, homophobia, and all manner of ill rampant in society, but that still doesn't address my counterpoint to the way the debate was framed.

*shrug*

edit: derp my reading comprehension is bad.

[Synapse]

This is one of those discussions that needs to be discussed from both sides. Yes, women get objectified and are portrayed in the media as only following few specific tropes, but those same supposed sexist acts play to a woman's advantage in some situations. If I get pulled over for speeding, i'm getting a ticket, but if a woman gets pulled over, she can talk her way out of it if she keeps her eyes in her tits. I'm all for equality, but only as soon a women are allowed on the frontlines and are required to register for the draft.

So, are you one of the ones who sent death threats? No, probably not.

10 pages in, what I'd like to find out is who is sending quite so much hate at the project. We have a few here who disagree with it, and maybe I think they're wrong but I also don't think they're frothing at the mouth angry either.

Can we try to figure out whether the nastiness she's getting is really all trolling? Lall points out that her project isnt really the best of all targets for trolling, there are certainly better.

Any ideas?

[Paradox]

this thread is bad and you should all feel bad

I do. I feel pretty damn bad right now.

A list of deep, interesting male characters in games might be twice as long or so as an exhaustive list of "good" female characters but considering the amount of male gamers compared to female gamers isn't that a fairly progressive ratio?

I read (and have no reason to disbelieve) that women are up to 47% of gamers now, so you're going to have to evolve your thought here. Just a minor contribution.

Sauce? that doesn't seem likely, it could be true but 82% of statistics are made up on the spot.

I fail to see how this whole thing is such a big issue. Someone is making a video blog, who the fuck cares? Someone is making a video blog on video games, even bigger who the fuck cares? Someone is making a video blog on sexism video games, ...

Congratulations to all the haters of this thing, without all the slerging this would've just been another circle-jerk video talking about shit everyone already knows and nobody would remember it in a few months time. Now she gets $150,000 and all this publicity, wouldn't be at all surprised if she ends up on Oprah or Helen or something.

Also fucking hell FHC, 11 pages overnight?

I suppose we haven't really discussed the issue before... not anywhere I've seen anyway. Regardless I'm willing to bet that even with all this sperging no-one will remember or care in a few months.

[Synapse]

A list of deep, interesting male characters in games might be twice as long or so as an exhaustive list of "good" female characters but considering the amount of male gamers compared to female gamers isn't that a fairly progressive ratio?

I read (and have no reason to disbelieve) that women are up to 47% of gamers now, so you're going to have to evolve your thought here. Just a minor contribution.

I bet that's only if you count browser, phone and "games" of that sort. If we're talking good ol' 'puter games, which you yanks and yank influenced like to call video games, then that figure cannot be anywhere near correct.

Oh wow I only just read this on wikipedia and now I can use it, GREAT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[dpidcoe]

A list of deep, interesting male characters in games might be twice as long or so as an exhaustive list of "good" female characters but considering the amount of male gamers compared to female gamers isn't that a fairly progressive ratio?

I read (and have no reason to disbelieve) that women are up to 47% of gamers now, so you're going to have to evolve your thought here. Just a minor contribution.

I bet that's only if you count browser, phone and "games" of that sort. If we're talking good ol' 'puter games, which you yanks and yank influenced like to call video games, then that figure cannot be anywhere near correct.

Oh wow I only just read this on wikipedia and now I can use it, GREAT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Except that browser and phone games are to real games as irish are to scotsmen

[Tyrus Tenebros]

A list of deep, interesting male characters in games might be twice as long or so as an exhaustive list of "good" female characters but considering the amount of male gamers compared to female gamers isn't that a fairly progressive ratio?

I read (and have no reason to disbelieve) that women are up to 47% of gamers now, so you're going to have to evolve your thought here. Just a minor contribution.

I bet that's only if you count browser, phone and "games" of that sort. If we're talking good ol' 'puter games, which you yanks and yank influenced like to call video games, then that figure cannot be anywhere near correct.

Oh wow I only just read this on wikipedia and now I can use it, GREAT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Well for the sake of devil's advocacy, we can rehash his point in to something that is quite relevant and not a no-true-scotsman.

If a majority of "new gamers" who play relatively low-depth games (e.g. farmville, angry birds, fruit ninja, etc.) and many newer female gamers are playing this sort of game, the idea of sexism or objectivism in games goes right out the window, since a vast majority of those games don't have a sufficient (or any human) character base to begin such an exploration.

[Qui Shon]

A list of deep, interesting male characters in games might be twice as long or so as an exhaustive list of "good" female characters but considering the amount of male gamers compared to female gamers isn't that a fairly progressive ratio?

I read (and have no reason to disbelieve) that women are up to 47% of gamers now, so you're going to have to evolve your thought here. Just a minor contribution.

I bet that's only if you count browser, phone and "games" of that sort. If we're talking good ol' 'puter games, which you yanks and yank influenced like to call video games, then that figure cannot be anywhere near correct.

Oh wow I only just read this on wikipedia and now I can use it, GREAT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Lol, dumbass strawman. (You have read about the strawman argument on wiki as well, right?)

Now why don't you watch the vid that Lall the failure has still failed to fix his link to, the source of this whole thing, and tell me if you see any browser games?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...in-video-games


PS.
I differentiate between computer games and console games every opportunity I get, because it might give me a follow up chance to pour bile on console tards. But that's unrelated to the OP.

[Ravelin Eb]

An example that might be worth debating. I'm becoming good friends with a girl I met a few weeks ago. She used to do (and I hope she does again) stand up comedy. She is a very funny person, she is very intelligent and I have a blast with her. But she told me of her attempts at stand up, particularly when she would get into very "female" topics. Talking about female sexuality, in a funny manner, and she'd get a good laugh out of it, especially from women. But then men would become very uncomfortable and sort of look strangely at their girlfriends and wives, and the place would get very quiet. That's a very subtle and dangerous form of misogyny.

Is it though? It may be, I'm not saying it's not, but talking about a comedian splitting the room with their material and then standing back and acting like the male contingent of the audience should damn well laugh anyway even if they don't "get" what's being said seems.. odd, perhaps even feminist. If a comedian(enne) alienates their audience with their material they're probably just a shit (or at least unobservant) comedian, irrespective of their gender.

You could make the counter argument that female comedians don't do their "women not being funny" stereotype any favours by grabbing the low hanging fruit that is "so men eh ladies?". Stereotyping begets stereotyping.

The point is that the men do "get" it they just dont feel comfortable laughing at it (when the reverse isn't true).

I've never seen a female comedian do the "men eh ladies?" routine you are referring to.

haha I know this a few pages back but jesus christ.

[Loire]

I haven't reas the whole thread, so if Lallante's admitted to trolling, my bad.

My objection to this would be that it's misdirected.

Why pick on "Video Games", when it's actually the vast majority of the entertainment industry that's guilty?

If this was the only time this has come up, you wouldn't have so much trendy feminist hate in this thread.

Also surprised nobody posted this.
What if the male avengers all posed like the female one?

I don't know if this was a troll but I'm going to bite:

For a woman the idealized body parts are the breasts, buttocks and face. For a man the same applies to excessive upper body muscles but also extends to machismo and athleticism. All of the characters in that poster are being exploited for their specific desired traits except, perhaps, Iron Man. Notice the excessive musculature prominent on all the male characters, the prominence of the penis (why is hawkeye faced the way he is specifically if he's guarding the left flank and why does Cap have such a prominent bulge?) and the roar face. Why are we singling out Johanson "pose"?

[Frug]

clearly the two options are "completely accidental" and "secret plans of men"

Dumbass.
It's obviously not by accident, and equally obviously not by secret plans. But that won't stop me from poking fun at the inevitable next stage of that argument, that has and will be taken by the people some in this thread much to my amusement argue don't exist (Dem nazis, that is.)

Fine, well maybe I'll +rep you later.

[Synapse]

A list of deep, interesting male characters in games might be twice as long or so as an exhaustive list of "good" female characters but considering the amount of male gamers compared to female gamers isn't that a fairly progressive ratio?

I read (and have no reason to disbelieve) that women are up to 47% of gamers now, so you're going to have to evolve your thought here. Just a minor contribution.

I bet that's only if you count browser, phone and "games" of that sort. If we're talking good ol' 'puter games, which you yanks and yank influenced like to call video games, then that figure cannot be anywhere near correct.

Oh wow I only just read this on wikipedia and now I can use it, GREAT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Lol, dumbass strawman. (You have read about the strawman argument on wiki as well, right?)

Now why don't you watch the vid that Lall the failure has still failed to fix his link to, the source of this whole thing, and tell me if you see any browser games?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...in-video-games


PS.
I differentiate between computer games and console games every opportunity I get, because it might give me a follow up chance to pour bile on console tards. But that's unrelated to the OP.

Look not to put you off your discussion with me or anything but you're not making any sense.

1. "PC games" isnt a genre. The only thing not commonly seen off the PC is MMOs, and that's changing pretty quick as well. The PC itself contains all genres, browser games included. So I fail to see any real distinction.
2. Even if I did concede point 1, A lack of women playing the games she discusses is _not_ a good excuse for sexism within those video games. Just because the girls aren't watching doesn't mean you can go ahead and say or watch whatever. This is just as much about the affect it has on the players of any gender and on society through their actions.
3. Even if I conceded _both_ of those, the study is still valid because potentially the reason women aren't playing those genres (if such a genre can be defined) is exactly because most games portray women badly.

So yeah, make sense please because you're not sounding smart and I hesitate to call you "dumb" because I actually do want your reply, but the temptation is there.

[Frug]

I don't know if this was a troll but I'm going to bite:

For a woman the idealized body parts are the breasts, buttocks and face. For a man the same applies to excessive upper body muscles but also extends to machismo and athleticism. All of the characters in that poster are being exploited for their specific desired traits except, perhaps, Iron Man. Notice the excessive musculature prominent on all the male characters, the prominence of the penis (why is hawkeye faced the way he is specifically if he's guarding the left flank and why does Cap have such a prominent bulge?) and the roar face. Why are we singling out Johanson "pose"?

I hope you don't think that a man's ass isn't extremely important sexually.

You're probably right, but the whole picture is more than that. The production and consumption of these comics is male dominated, and both busty sexy women and being a hulking muscular hero are male fantasies. No doubt there are gay guys who like the men for their abs and packages and women who also dig it, but the latter is certainly the minority. Comics are totally homoerotic but the men's gigantic muscles also indicate their combat prowess and that's really important to most of these characters. Having gigantic boobs is purely sexual.

Moving beyond comics, if you consider the typical tv show and what characters they put on you often get a fat guy and a totally hot wife, or a nerdy unattractive guy and a totally hot assistant, etc etc. It's ok to be a guy and be ugly, but not if you're a girl.

Also you have to consider the narrative of these stories. Read this. It's tongue in cheek because it's on cracked, but you're smart enough to get the message. When you lump it all together, it paints a sad picture, imo. It wasn't until I got a girlfriend and really started paying attention to how sadly insecure girls are that I really appreciated their situation. Also I was brainwashed by a social psych course.

[evil edna]

dumb fuckin woman

[Loire]

Moving beyond comics, if you consider the typical tv show and what characters they put on you often get a fat guy and a totally hot wife, or a nerdy unattractive guy and a totally hot assistant, etc etc. It's ok to be a guy and be ugly, but not if you're a girl.

This one is based in reality. I don't even have to get anecdotal: Ugly men who exhibit charisma, wealth or power attract "beautiful" women in the real world just fine. In essence it is okay to be ugly as a man because looks aren't a priority on most females lists. Yes it's unfortunate that reversed situation does not hold true however can we say it's entirely fair for an ugly man who is more charismatic or richer than a handsome man to be able to pull more women? An attractive trait is an attractive trait whether it's looks, charisma, wealth, we can't judge one as more acceptable than the other. (This entire paragraph is not the say the average male lead actually shows any ulterior attractive traits [ala According to Jim])

e.: To be honest the ugly male lead/hot female costar seems to be mostly a comedy staple as well. We could write pages about ideal male characters over the decades from (Paul Newman to George Clooney).

[Jason Marshall]

Its impossible to be a good person to a feminist unless you are a woman who doesn't wear a bra. (See: Mrenda)

[Frug]

Moving beyond comics, if you consider the typical tv show and what characters they put on you often get a fat guy and a totally hot wife, or a nerdy unattractive guy and a totally hot assistant, etc etc. It's ok to be a guy and be ugly, but not if you're a girl.

This one is based in reality. I don't even have to get anecdotal: Ugly men who exhibit charisma, wealth or power attract "beautiful" women in the real world just fine. In essence it is okay to be ugly as a man because looks aren't a priority on most females lists. Yes it's unfortunate that reversed situation does not hold true however can we say it's entirely fair for an ugly man who is more charismatic or richer than a handsome man to be able to pull more women? An attractive trait is an attractive trait whether it's looks, charisma, wealth, we can't judge one as more acceptable than the other. (This entire paragraph is not the say the average male lead actually shows any ulterior attractive traits [ala According to Jim])

e.: To be honest the ugly male lead/hot female costar seems to be mostly a comedy staple as well. We could write pages about ideal male characters over the decades from (Paul Newman to George Clooney).

Oh I'm not about to argue that there isn't a biological basis for all of this shit any more than I'd argue that it doesn't negatively affect men in different ways. It's propagating it and being ignorant about it that's unfortunate. Hurrbluhurr feminazis womens issues are a joke I've got the mental maturity of a teenager bluh.

Which is stupid of me because half the people here are probably teenagers anyway. Can't expect them to know or care.

[Wall]

What if the male avengers all posed like the female one?

Hahahah, more like "what if we produced thousands of promotional images and in a single one, as part of the background, 1 female character is taking a pose that some people found objectionable".

[Synapse]

What if the male avengers all posed like the female one?

Hahahah, more like "what if we produced thousands of promotional images and in a single one, as part of the background, 1 female character is taking a pose that some people found objectionable".

Comedy pose artist only had time to parody one. Sorry we let you down.

[Frug]

Heheh, look at wall getting all bothered by his weird interpretation.