Tropes vs. Women in Video Games Controversy

[ctrlchris]

I once had sex and I didnt even rape the girl.





not even a little bit.

Contact Xenosis for help!!!!

to be the best you have to learn from the best

[Kransthow]

Also I resent that you have labelled me as a misogynist in the op as I am clearly not because I wore a dress once and love cute things and lesbians so you should obviously rectify that erroneous statement.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

TL;DR

Lallante is a good troll.

He's not trolling he genuinely enjoys creating a debate position that's defined to enable him to win, and then sit and watch the waves crash against the wall he's created.

It's an incredibly powerful debating tactic if your opponent accepts how define the debate framework. In this case he threw up such a large number of strawmen that he's defined nearly every conceivable counter argument (legit or not) is already solidly covered under a single label he's defined as "unacceptablex.

He can sit and respond to anybody he's "defined out of the debate" with no trouble because nobody challenges the framework of the issue

Note, for example, the lack of response to the point that males are similarly ridiculously unrealistic in video games. The only possibly response is that its a continuation of the "male fantasy' whichwould require (1)because claiming women aren't gamers (a bad response became a negative definition of women is defined as misogny) or (2) that video games simply aren't realistic, which defeats the purpose of exploring tropes as minstereotyping only women.

And now you are trying to push anyone that disagree with you in a corner.

Let's instead ask why that matter when it comes to women in games? Does two wrong make a right?
Or we could ask, how does those male and female stereotypes affect people? Is there a difference on male and female stereotypes, why is that and what effect does that have on females and males playing? And are those good/bad? Are there perhaps more stereotypes that are "good" for male characters than for females?

You've proposed a totally different study though that might be legitimate. The point is that questioning a study which only focuses on a subset of that is not inherently.misogynistic especially when you can easily find reasons to study the much wider phenomenon of stereotyping and tropes in video games without the need for the gender bias.

Leave it to lall m8, you lost the argument in the first response by admitting the worth of a less-one-sidded look at the issue

[spasm]

Also I resent that you have labelled me as a misogynist in the op as I am clearly not because I wore a dress once and love cute things and lesbians so you should obviously rectify that erroneous statement.

If you like anime, you're a double rapist.

[Lallante]

I think we need to realize that you and me are obviously treating the term "feminist" with different meanings.

For me a feminist are those radical females who are mostly just disguising their personal hatred of men in general with a politically correct facade, whereas you view feminists as all women who fight for equality.

So you have a warped understanding of what it means to be a feminist? How is this a defence of your views exactly?

[ctrlchris]

Also I resent that you have labelled me as a misogynist in the op as I am clearly not because I wore a dress once and love cute things and lesbians so you should obviously rectify that erroneous statement.

I think you're pretty krans

[Kransthow]

Also I resent that you have labelled me as a misogynist in the op as I am clearly not because I wore a dress once and love cute things and lesbians so you should obviously rectify that erroneous statement.

If you like anime, you're a double rapist.

It keeps happening

[filingo]

I sympathize with blues viewpoint but i think he is having trouble expressing it correctly.

"i believe in gender equality and react badly to people who campaign for the advancement of one over the other, but sadly i am male and we are bad at expressing our emotions so i result to childish behaviour"

OMG I MADE A COMMENT ON HOW MEN ARE OFTEN BAD AT EXPRESSING THEMSELVES IN A SENSIBLE MANNER


On a tangent I remember being told by my 14-16 year old peers that racism was discrimination by white people against black/asian people.

I used to travel to another school to do my a level chemistry and i hadnt realised that the times had change from a 11am start to a 9:30 am start in the second year. When i arrived i heard someone mutter, oh theres two of them now. The chemistry teacher was white. I didnt go back.

Personally I believe in equality for all regardless of race/gender/creed/hair colours other than ginger and think it foolish to pass judgement on anyone based on any of these (unless they are ginger)

(not trolling, no academic social osmosis studies to justify my view just a multi cultural upbringing next to a major airport and generally not being a cunt)

[Hatepeace Lovewar]

Part take in male dominated hobby, yet suprised when male dominated hobby contains elements that are only found acceptable amongst males.

I didn't read her kick start, i must admit, but I read the linked guardian article and got that was the impression I got.

If you start to see more females in this industry, then things like this will naturally happen and guys will stop making boob jokes on stage at games conventions. I can't believe any one is suprised by this, women will be eternally offended by boob jokes, but men will eternally make boob jokes in male only (or male dominated) environments, feminists will never change this and I think that's possibly what annoys them the most.

[Kransthow]

I sympathize with blues viewpoint but i think he is having trouble expressing it correctly.

"i believe in gender equality and react badly to people who campaign for the advancement of one over the other, but sadly i am male and we are bad at expressing our emotions so i result to childish behaviour"

OMG I MADE A COMMENT ON HOW MEN ARE OFTEN BAD AT EXPRESSING THEMSELVES IN A SENSIBLE MANNER


On a tangent I remember being told by my 14-16 year old peers that racism was discrimination by white people against black/asian people.

I used to travel to another school to do my a level chemistry and i hadnt realised that the times had change from a 11am start to a 9:30 am start in the second year. When i arrived i heard someone mutter, oh theres two of them now. The chemistry teacher was white. I didnt go back.

Personally I believe in equality for all regardless of race/gender/creed/hair colours other than ginger and think it foolish to pass judgement on anyone based on any of these (unless they are ginger)

(not trolling, no academic social osmosis studies to justify my view just a multi cultural upbringing next to a major airport and generally not being a cunt)

what about jews

[Durzel]

An example that might be worth debating. I'm becoming good friends with a girl I met a few weeks ago. She used to do (and I hope she does again) stand up comedy. She is a very funny person, she is very intelligent and I have a blast with her. But she told me of her attempts at stand up, particularly when she would get into very "female" topics. Talking about female sexuality, in a funny manner, and she'd get a good laugh out of it, especially from women. But then men would become very uncomfortable and sort of look strangely at their girlfriends and wives, and the place would get very quiet. That's a very subtle and dangerous form of misogyny.

Is it though? It may be, I'm not saying it's not, but talking about a comedian splitting the room with their material and then standing back and acting like the male contingent of the audience should damn well laugh anyway even if they don't "get" what's being said seems.. odd, perhaps even feminist. If a comedian(enne) alienates their audience with their material they're probably just a shit (or at least unobservant) comedian, irrespective of their gender.

You could make the counter argument that female comedians don't do their "women not being funny" stereotype any favours by grabbing the low hanging fruit that is "so men eh ladies?". Stereotyping begets stereotyping.

[Chrien]

One of the best posts I've seen on FHC.

Considering this is probably the worst thread on FHC thats a big call.

[ctrlchris]

SRS POST TIME

Dont be a cunt, be a good bloke.
Keep chill

[filingo]

SRS POST TIME

Dont be a cunt, be a good human
Keep chill

fix'd

[ctrlchris]

SRS POST TIME

Dont be a cunt, be a good human
Keep chill

fix'd

Fair.
My :strayan: shone through

Although.
If you need anything in this tread explained to you please go jump of a bridge, make us better over all.

[Lallante]

Part take in male dominated hobby, yet suprised when male dominated hobby contains elements that are only found acceptable amongst males.

I didn't read her kick start, i must admit, but I read the linked guardian article and got that was the impression I got.

If you start to see more females in this industry, then things like this will naturally happen and guys will stop making boob jokes on stage at games conventions. I can't believe any one is suprised by this, women will be eternally offended by boob jokes, but men will eternally make boob jokes in male only (or male dominated) environments, feminists will never change this and I think that's possibly what annoys them the most.

If you had read the kickstarter she isn't surprised by it, she wants to highlight and study it.

And saying "its just the way it is and always has been" is the same argument people used to oppose pretty much any positive societal change ever (i.e. a terrible one).

[Lallante]

An example that might be worth debating. I'm becoming good friends with a girl I met a few weeks ago. She used to do (and I hope she does again) stand up comedy. She is a very funny person, she is very intelligent and I have a blast with her. But she told me of her attempts at stand up, particularly when she would get into very "female" topics. Talking about female sexuality, in a funny manner, and she'd get a good laugh out of it, especially from women. But then men would become very uncomfortable and sort of look strangely at their girlfriends and wives, and the place would get very quiet. That's a very subtle and dangerous form of misogyny.

Is it though? It may be, I'm not saying it's not, but talking about a comedian splitting the room with their material and then standing back and acting like the male contingent of the audience should damn well laugh anyway even if they don't "get" what's being said seems.. odd, perhaps even feminist. If a comedian(enne) alienates their audience with their material they're probably just a shit (or at least unobservant) comedian, irrespective of their gender.

You could make the counter argument that female comedians don't do their "women not being funny" stereotype any favours by grabbing the low hanging fruit that is "so men eh ladies?". Stereotyping begets stereotyping.

The point is that the men do "get" it they just dont feel comfortable laughing at it (when the reverse isn't true).

I've never seen a female comedian do the "men eh ladies?" routine you are referring to.

[Lallante]

One of the best posts I've seen on FHC.

Considering this is probably the worst thread on FHC thats a big call.

Misogynist.

[Mrenda]

An example that might be worth debating. I'm becoming good friends with a girl I met a few weeks ago. She used to do (and I hope she does again) stand up comedy. She is a very funny person, she is very intelligent and I have a blast with her. But she told me of her attempts at stand up, particularly when she would get into very "female" topics. Talking about female sexuality, in a funny manner, and she'd get a good laugh out of it, especially from women. But then men would become very uncomfortable and sort of look strangely at their girlfriends and wives, and the place would get very quiet. That's a very subtle and dangerous form of misogyny.

Is it though? It may be, I'm not saying it's not, but talking about a comedian splitting the room with their material and then standing back and acting like the male contingent of the audience should damn well laugh anyway even if they don't "get" what's being said seems.. odd, perhaps even feminist. If a comedian(enne) alienates their audience with their material they're probably just a shit (or at least unobservant) comedian, irrespective of their gender.

You could make the counter argument that female comedians don't do their "women not being funny" stereotype any favours by grabbing the low hanging fruit that is "so men eh ladies?". Stereotyping begets stereotyping.

Ok. First off where did I say she said, "so men eh ladies?" Her routine was about female sexuality, not about dicks and pussy. And even if it was about dicks and pussy, lots of comedians make a lot of money based on that. Not very good comedians, but they do make money on it.

Secondly, Dara O'Briain does a routine on computer games, and states at the outset that half the audience simply will not get his jokes. This is because people don't play computer games. If we take it that 10% of the population is gay, and half of them are lesbians, that means 95% of the population (at least at comedy gigs) would have an idea of issues relating to female sexuality. They're either female themselves, or their banging a woman.

But again, your immediate response is to say, "She's not funny, she's just alienating her audience." She is funny, I've met her, she has made many people laugh, she has won awards for her comedy. And alienating your audience really is the crux of the issue. Why should talking about something specific to half the world directly, and the other half of the word indirectly be something that's alienating.

[Devec]

Part take in male dominated hobby, yet suprised when male dominated hobby contains elements that are only found acceptable amongst males.

I didn't read her kick start, i must admit, but I read the linked guardian article and got that was the impression I got.

If you start to see more females in this industry, then things like this will naturally happen and guys will stop making boob jokes on stage at games conventions. I can't believe any one is suprised by this, women will be eternally offended by boob jokes, but men will eternally make boob jokes in male only (or male dominated) environments, feminists will never change this and I think that's possibly what annoys them the most.

That is exactly the problem with the culture, just because it is dominated by men doesn't mean we should treat the other gender with disrespect. Maybe it is my upbringing but I have always been taught to respect people and not judging based on gender or racial pre-established stereotypes. That said I find boob jokes as funny as penis jokes which is not at all. Which might not make me one of the guys, but I don't hang out with people like that in the first place.

The reason of oh it's just a guy thing or oh it's just a joke is as stable argument as a table with two legs, give a nudge against it and it topples over.

If you want more women to enter the industry, there needs to be the opportunity for a work environment in which people feel respected. If they don't they will not suffer countless misogynistic viewpoints and stay there to try and make a change. The industry itself needs to change to allow it. That means going against the stream, which is the only way to get change.

Now if you wish to have an argument about gender equality I would also recommend to stop refering to men and women as females and males. Although we may be animals we are not barbaric. We are all people able to reason logically if given the opportunity and allowing ourselves the understanding.