+repOriginally Posted by filingo
To be honest that's what happens to every discussion on here. If you find a better forums for open discussions please let me know =)
(seriously please let me know)
no one gets shouted down here, shut the fuck up
noob
You can't get all bollocky when people treat idiotic arguments as idiotic. That's "I have a right to my stupid opinion" shit. If you have something sensible to say, say it. But just because you want there to be a discussion doesn't mean one is going to happen if one side of any discussion is all aboard the Derp Train. And just because people call out plain, downright stupidity as stupid doesn't mean people aren't willing to engage in a discussion, it just means they're not going to tolerate blatant obtusity.I don't think with absolute certainty that she did fake the abusive comments but I'm going to roll with my tenuous argument that it would have been pretty damn easy for her to fake the abusive comments knowing, as you do, that sensationalising things generally makes them more popular. We all know that kickstarter has no rule about overfunding a project, any fool will have known that this would have generated enough attention to make quite a substantial amount of money.This project would have struggled to hit its target amount (which is about the right amount to pay for 12 videos with production values equivalent to her earlier work on films) had it not been for this furore. It makes no sense to call it a money-grab unless you are accusing her of faking the abusive comments which stirred up the controversy (and are ongoing) - are you?
She isn't ranting and raving, she is identifying tropes and discussing their impact. She is a gamer. The fact that you are just making assumptions like these rather proves you haven't really bothered to inform yourself before coming to the conclusion that you disagree with her idea.
"She isn't ranting and raving" Well no, she isn't because she hasn't made the videos yet, I don't know what form they'll take. And now I'm making an assumption (I call it a suspicion but whatever) that she wants to monetise a social issue and therefore I disagree with her idea out of ignorance.
Well not exactly, I do think that this issue deserves some proper, high-profile discussion, I'm just saying that it's easy to make a cynical cash-grab and not actually have any interest in discussing it, how are people that want to discuss the issue and take the opposing view supposed to do that? are they supposed to raise money for a video series of their own? preposterous, no-one will pay men to make videos about feminism. And as we seem to find in this thread, the people trying to discuss the opposing side are shouted down and decried as "misogynists" So what would you suggest? how should discussion take place?
An example that might be worth debating. I'm becoming good friends with a girl I met a few weeks ago. She used to do (and I hope she does again) stand up comedy. She is a very funny person, she is very intelligent and I have a blast with her. But she told me of her attempts at stand up, particularly when she would get into very "female" topics. Talking about female sexuality, in a funny manner, and she'd get a good laugh out of it, especially from women. But then men would become very uncomfortable and sort of look strangely at their girlfriends and wives, and the place would get very quiet. That's a very subtle and dangerous form of misogyny.
There's a lot of talking about female comics, and the very standard notion of "women not being funny." And that's downright, blatantly wrong. I follow a huge amount of women on twitter, journalists and comedians, and I don't mean overtly feminist orientated people. Just people tweeting about what's going on in the world and they are very funny. And these people often complain that women are underrepresented on comedy shows on TV. And while I think that's a very important issue, I think the bigger issue is that women aren't seen to be funny. (and obviously getting women on tv will help that.) I could easily be swayed to say women have a different form of humour, they tell "jokes" differently. And people can find this funny, I know I do if twitter is anything to go by. But because they aren't seen to be funny, people aren't allowed to laugh at it, and the dominance of "male" comedy continues.
Feminism is about an equal footing for women with men. But really, it's about attitudes to society. I don't believe it's about glass ceilings on careers, or equal pay, I think it's very much about how "femininity" is treated in society. And the idea that a female attitude or outlook on life is somehow lesser than a male outlook.
And men absolutely suffer from this too. The typical example is childcare. How many men have a traditionally female view on kids, getting broody (or paternal) and wanting to look after kids. But they're discouraged from doing so and looked down upon if they become stay-at-home dads. And you can call that an equality/egalitarian issue, or you can call it a feminist issue. And by feminist issue, I mean that people look down on the man because he is giving up his position of greatness to fall into a lower tier of personhood, a feminine tier of personhood.
Really, whether you want to call it feminism or egalitarianism is pretty much irrelevant, it's about tolerance in society and the willingness to be open to and understand what other people want, need and who they are. And that's what's so fucking annoying about the response to these videos. There's absolutely fuck all attempts being made to understand why someone would feel these are needed.
And most of all, if you're a man and you're a good person, please don't take the man-bashing personally. It's directed at fuckwads like Wall, not people who are being genuine in their ability to understand their fellow "man."
Male characters can be stereotyped too but generally have a lot more depth in "good" games. Women tend to be a lot more one dimensional. In any case, identifying and combating tropes in one gender will help both genders in the long run.
I'm being deliberately inflamatory to provoke debate as usual.
oi!!
:coughs:
I think we need to realize that you and me are obviously treating the term "feminist" with different meanings.Genuinely? I find it fascinating that some guys feel so threatened that some girl wants to make a documentary series about tropes in videogames (which we all know obviously do exist) that they have to hurl deaththreats and abuse at her for daring to do so.
Its also fascinating how otherwise reasonably normal people contort themselves (subconsciously) to justify being against such a project. "I met a feminist once (or even "I heard of some feminists") who I didn't care for, therefore I'm against anything that relates to correcting discrimination against women" being a reasonable summary of Bleutreiter and many other's views.
For me a feminist are those radical females who are mostly just disguising their personal hatred of men in general with a politically correct facade, whereas you view feminists as all women who fight for equality.
hahhahahhahahahThere is a similar project about misandry in video games and the response they got wasn't any more civil than the project mentioned here received.
http://www.indiegogo.com/misandryinvideogames This I pressume? Looks promising enough now. Can't say that the original google document that kotaku read was that inspiring.
http://misandryinvideogames.tumblr.com/ This is golden though...
I liked this one
Spoiler:
That's ridiculous. That's like saying fuck those politician cunts, because Hitler was a politician. (Also, fuck those politician cunts!)I think we need to realize that you and me are obviously treating the term "feminist" with different meanings.Genuinely? I find it fascinating that some guys feel so threatened that some girl wants to make a documentary series about tropes in videogames (which we all know obviously do exist) that they have to hurl deaththreats and abuse at her for daring to do so.
Its also fascinating how otherwise reasonably normal people contort themselves (subconsciously) to justify being against such a project. "I met a feminist once (or even "I heard of some feminists") who I didn't care for, therefore I'm against anything that relates to correcting discrimination against women" being a reasonable summary of Bleutreiter and many other's views.
For me a feminist are those radical females who are mostly just disguising their personal hatred of men in general with a politically correct facade, whereas you view feminists as all women who fight for equality.
He's not trolling he genuinely enjoys creating a debate position that's defined to enable him to win, and then sit and watch the waves crash against the wall he's created.
It's an incredibly powerful debating tactic if your opponent accepts how define the debate framework. In this case he threw up such a large number of strawmen that he's defined nearly every conceivable counter argument (legit or not) is already solidly covered under a single label he's defined as "unacceptablex.
He can sit and respond to anybody he's "defined out of the debate" with no trouble because nobody challenges the framework of the issue
Note, for example, the lack of response to the point that males are similarly ridiculously unrealistic in video games. The only possibly response is that its a continuation of the "male fantasy' whichwould require (1)because claiming women aren't gamers (a bad response became a negative definition of women is defined as misogny) or (2) that video games simply aren't realistic, which defeats the purpose of exploring tropes as minstereotyping only women.
Edit: missed some posts ... I'll keep the above but add (3l dismiss the argument with an unsubstantiated handwave that male characters are "more developed" and therefore acceptable, which is an obvious dodge but still keeps with my above assertion about hos use of definition and framework to win an argument before it starts.
Edit2: not hating on pall btw, just pointing g out how he fans the flames @and uses the opening statement to define the debate in a way that's favorable to him. Probably a good RL lawyer
Last edited by Tyrus Tenebros; June 20 2012 at 02:51:41 PM.
I tried to be cool and all I got was a lousy warning about my sig being too big.
That project was started as a troll response to this project. Misandry would imply that videogame makers are deliberately promoting negative views or discrimination against men, which is laughable.There is a similar project about misandry in video games and the response they got wasn't any more civil than the project mentioned here received.
A project about negative male stereotypes in videogames (rather than Misandry) would be worthwhile.
I once had sex and I didnt even rape the girl.
not even a little bit.
Your posting is medium, its not rare and its not well done
- Krans 26/7/12
Except that Lallante obviously looked into a dictionary while you didn't.I think we need to realize that you and me are obviously treating the term "feminist" with different meanings.Genuinely? I find it fascinating that some guys feel so threatened that some girl wants to make a documentary series about tropes in videogames (which we all know obviously do exist) that they have to hurl deaththreats and abuse at her for daring to do so.
Its also fascinating how otherwise reasonably normal people contort themselves (subconsciously) to justify being against such a project. "I met a feminist once (or even "I heard of some feminists") who I didn't care for, therefore I'm against anything that relates to correcting discrimination against women" being a reasonable summary of Bleutreiter and many other's views.
For me a feminist are those radical females who are mostly just disguising their personal hatred of men in general with a politically correct facade, whereas you view feminists as all women who fight for equality.
Contact Xenosis for help!!!!
Ok so challenge the framework.
That isn't the point. There are of course ridiculous, unrealistic and yes, damaging tropes about men in videogames. That would also be a worthy topic for a video series.Note, for example, the lack of response to the point that males are similarly ridiculously unrealistic in video games. The only possibly response is that its a continuation of the "male fantasy' whichwould require (1)because claiming women aren't gamers (a bad response became a negative definition of women is defined as misogny) or (2) that video games simply aren't realistic, which defeats the purpose of exploring tropes as minstereotyping only women.
That argument has absolutely nothing to do with the worth, or lack thereof, of this project about female tropes however. Its NOT a counterargument or a reason not to support this effort.
That's why I listed it in my "list of strawmen" (which is in fact not a list of strawmen because you are using that argument).
And now you are trying to push anyone that disagree with you in a corner.He's not trolling he genuinely enjoys creating a debate position that's defined to enable him to win, and then sit and watch the waves crash against the wall he's created.
It's an incredibly powerful debating tactic if your opponent accepts how define the debate framework. In this case he threw up such a large number of strawmen that he's defined nearly every conceivable counter argument (legit or not) is already solidly covered under a single label he's defined as "unacceptablex.
He can sit and respond to anybody he's "defined out of the debate" with no trouble because nobody challenges the framework of the issue
Note, for example, the lack of response to the point that males are similarly ridiculously unrealistic in video games. The only possibly response is that its a continuation of the "male fantasy' whichwould require (1)because claiming women aren't gamers (a bad response became a negative definition of women is defined as misogny) or (2) that video games simply aren't realistic, which defeats the purpose of exploring tropes as minstereotyping only women.
Let's instead ask why that matter when it comes to women in games? Does two wrong make a right?
Or we could ask, how does those male and female stereotypes affect people? Is there a difference on male and female stereotypes, why is that and what effect does that have on females and males playing? And are those good/bad? Are there perhaps more stereotypes that are "good" for male characters than for females?
Last edited by lt; June 20 2012 at 02:51:39 PM. Reason: selfpromoting are a bad word.
Coming soon(tm).
<3 Entrox.
Once
I tried to be cool and all I got was a lousy warning about my sig being too big.
I certainly don't think its "obvious" that this would generate the kind of controversy or support that it has. I actually found it rather astounding. My expectation would be that a project like this would flounder at about 20% funding for lack of interest. You may disagree.
But its worth having an introspective moment and asking yourself why, fundamentally, you are suspicious of this kickstarter project rather than any and all other kickstarter projects. Do you have a gut dislike/suspicion of projects that target discrimination or negative views of women? Or of projects that criticise videogames?
is that a code word for you pressuring a defenseless girl into having not really consensual sex?
I bet she was underage as well you disgusting pig.
Nathan Drake is an unrealistic representation of a man. I can't even jump over a chest-high box let alone hang on to a cargo net flapping around out the back of a airplane.
There is absolutely no options on the spectrum between "One dimensional sexualised/victim objects" and "boring normal people"?
Surely the point is we want more depth and less use of old-fashioned and profoundly negative tropes, not necessarily more realism.
One of the best posts I've seen on FHC.
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