UK internet connection - constant nightmare

[Cosmin]

TL;DR: ADSL too slow. Need 100Mbps. No offers except BT, but that goes through the same phone lines (wth?). Wat do.

So, I've been here about 1 1/2 years now, I like even the weather (back in my country summers can go up to 45*C in the shade), but I have a really big problem with the internet connection, no matter which provider.

In the beginning I wanted mobile access with unlimited data, being opened to paying the price, of course, just to find out there isn't any provider for that. No matter what the price. No unlimited data. Really?

Anyway fast forward and Three offers unlimited data stuff, so I buy it. Tried a couple of times to use it in my lappie's internal modem -> text from 3 saying the SIM will be disabled. Really? Ok, I'll just use my phone as an access point and tether hundreds of gigabytes per month. Nobody complained. Well...

At home I decided to go with something fast. Oh, wait, there's only ADSL available (all the providers). Sure, ok, speed? Oh, around 12Mbps. Ok, got the contract from Sky (they all use the same line anyway). Worked at about 750ish KBps, then went down to 300 with ping losses and all the nasty stuff associated (like getting exploded without a fight). I spent around 2 hours on the phone trying to debug the shit only to find out that pulling the TV Box and the phone from the wall socket the router was in would solve the problem. Relocated the phone in the bedroom where there's another socket (charming to get woken up by fail callers), problem solved.

Well, nope. I have a huge Steam game collection that I don't want to keep installed (given the price per GB the HDDs sport these days) but that I'd like to play when I want (that being the point). I want to use video calls and make use of the HD camera I have. Also stream 1080p youtubz without interruptions.

All in all, I want the fastest connexion possible. So I checked with BT, because they're the only ones offering it in my area (BT Infinity 61.9Mb download 20.0Mb upload). Now problem is I still have some time with Sky left so might be a bit difficult. Now I've been over online chat with a BT representative that told me that they would use the same phone line for this. I said no that's impossible, she said no it isn't, I said no, the damn wires make it physically impossible to acheive those speeds, she kept on. Also what is shown in the video here contradicts the "specialist", but wth, I had worse surprises yet with stuffs I've assumed about worked totally different (I'm well adjusted but in the IT stuffs here I'm paranoid x3).

I also don't need (another) phone line, I`m perfectly happy with this one and the number I have at the moment. Also don't want another TV box, wire managing the cables was hell and I don't want to repeat the experience. I just want the damn internets.

Is that possible? Any first hand experiences you had? What should I expect? It seems I'm hitting a brick wall everytime I talk to tech support and being the only choice I'm tempted. Only thing is I don't want any surprises when they come to install it and they want to use the same damn wires.

Also what's with that BT Infinity box? I trust in the wires, have a Gigabit Ethernet network layed out already in the apartment, whatever router comes I just hook up mine and DHCP away, 2 firewalls > all but the BT box doesn't seem to connect to any wires... oO

Thank you.

[Smuggo]

Where do you live?

If you're not in a Virgin Media cable area, or one of the places that BT is rolling out fiber to cabinet, then you'll pretty much have to put up with it or move.

One thing I found made a big difference on my ADSL was removing the ring wires from the phone sockets. They cause a lot of interference on the line and can be a major reason for shitty connections.

[Zekk Pacus]

BT infinity is indeed possible over the copper wiring, it's FTTC (fiber to the cabinet).

Also sky are one of the worst for throttling/traffic shaping. Avoid where possible.

[cillisia]

If you're line is shit enough you can get bt to replace it for free. I got bt to do that for my dad

Sent from my mobile comms unit

[Amantus]

Also sky are one of the worst for throttling/traffic shaping. Avoid where possible.

Are you sure? Unless they've started doing it fairly recently, or you're talking about their cheaper packages/bundles, I thought they didn't traffic shape or throttle.

[Bombcrater]

All in all, I want the fastest connexion possible. So I checked with BT, because they're the only ones offering it in my area (BT Infinity 61.9Mb download 20.0Mb upload). Now problem is I still have some time with Sky left so might be a bit difficult. Now I've been over online chat with a BT representative that told me that they would use the same phone line for this. I said no that's impossible, she said no it isn't, I said no, the damn wires make it physically impossible to acheive those speeds, she kept on.

They do use the same phone line, but only a little bit of it. BT Infinity uses fibre as far as the metal cabinet that'll sit somewhere on your street (or one nearby) and only then does the connection jump to the copper phone line. The VDSL2+ system it uses can do 120Mbit in ideal conditions, but BT throttle it to 80Mbit because they're paranoid about interference and unstable lines.

Sky - like almost every ISP in the UK - offer fibre access using BT's network, it may be worth phoning them up and finding out how much it'll be to switch to that.

One good thing about fibre is that it's #1 priority for BT Openreach, who manage the phone network, and they're good at sending engineers out to check the line if it's in any way dodgy. They also supply a standard VDSL2+ modem, so the ISP can't blame your equipment.

[Krugerrand]

I never had any problems with sky - no signs of throttling/shaping. Only issues I ever had were with wireless and their shitty router.

I too am going to have the same problems as the OP when I move. None fiber speeds where I am moving to are terrible. But I got the choice between Virgin Media (who do shape) or I'm guessing FTTC. Probably come down to a cost thing.

[elmicker]

Also sky are one of the worst for throttling/traffic shaping. Avoid where possible.

Are you sure? Unless they've started doing it fairly recently, or you're talking about their cheaper packages/bundles, I thought they didn't traffic shape or throttle.

they don't traffic shape or throttle, they just cap your speed permanently. we've been on them for all of this year, our neighbours about the place all get anywhere in the 10-15mbit range off a standard "Up to 24mbit!" package, our modem has never moved off its maximum of 5mbit. Moving back to newcastle next week whereupon I'll be switching to virgin for glorious 100mbit cable. To sky's credit, they are stupendously cheap.

[Cosmin]

Thanks for the input, it's really appreciated!

Sky - like almost every ISP in the UK - offer fibre access using BT's network, it may be worth phoning them up and finding out how much it'll be to switch to that.

One good thing about fibre is that it's #1 priority for BT Openreach, who manage the phone network, and they're good at sending engineers out to check the line if it's in any way dodgy. They also supply a standard VDSL2+ modem, so the ISP can't blame your equipment.

I see, I'll give them a call about that and find out, it'd certainly beat changing everything - seems I can't get only the internet contract, only TV + landline + internet

I sincerely would pass on their equipment, my router is pretty good and I can debug the LAN problems (i.e. realise when I'm retarded), but given the fact they're shoving it down my throat...


About their equipment, anyone know whether can I hook up my own router to theirs or not? So basically it'd be their network -> their router -> my router (DHCP from their router). It's the way I do it now with Sky simply because I want my network to run at 10/100/1000, stuff their router isn't capable of. Of course tech support can't be derailed from their pre-set bot-like replies so I can't get through to them to answer me that.



Now something related, bordering facepalmland and retardland, Three decided to block 9gag (porn content; sure, LOL) and BTGuard (seems like most ISPs in the UK have a problem with VPNs and tunneling in general, don't really know how companies deal with this...). Is there a chance that a complaint about this might go through somehow and something be done about it or should I just change the mobile internet provider? Any suggestions on limitless internet contracts that might be usable in an internal 3G modem as well as a phone? I only found some T-Mobile offer at about 40 quid (loldongle included ofc), but I don't know about 1st hand experience with the network coverage, quality of signal, ping, download speeds, etc. Because marketing is nice, it's only when you get stuck with a 24 month contract that you find out the provider has problems if there's more than 2 glass windows between outside and the handset

[Helen]

3G in like one place or while you are on the move? Because unless its a big city with invested infrastructure then 99% of places are fucking terrible in the UK for 3G signal.
Also sure you can use your own router instead of sky's, not sure why zekk said sky shape/throttle I was with sky last year and they were awesome in a terrible part of England (torquay lol) with 20mb.
Where I am now is 25miles away with BT on a lol8mb line (best I've seen is 6mb...).

[crazyr2]

As long as your router has a RJ45 WAN port (sounds like it does) then yes you can use your router, there VDSL router taking place of your current sky (ADSL) one. FTTC is good. Use to get sub 1.5Mb, now get 60Mb.

Sky have two networks - one using BT's gear, the other using there own gear. The latter is far far better but only on the bigger exchanges.

[Cosmin]

3G in like one place or while you are on the move? Because unless its a big city with invested infrastructure then 99% of places are fucking terrible in the UK for 3G signal.

Myea, thought so Is this true no matter what the provider is? (Orange, 3, T-Mobile, O2, etc?). Of course I'd be interested also in good signal on the move but I've came to terms with the fact that I should probably admire the landscape instead of staring at my phone's screen trying to summon 1/4 bars of signal strenght.

Main problem is that I get good network coverage (Bedford/Milton Keynes/London), but as soon as I go indoors at my workplace (except London where I have a good signal even underground rofl) the signal plummets like a damn medieval anchor, I go through roaming in Vodafone with Three (lol) through no signal at all and this goes for all the networks I'm using (Lebara, Three, Orange, last one for roaming). I was curious about T-Mobile and O2, but I'll just stick with what I have at the moment and just take moar cigarette breaks to check Aura ^.^. Phone is a S2, that is why I assumed the network is a problem.

As long as your router has a RJ45 WAN port (sounds like it does) then yes you can use your router, there VDSL router taking place of your current sky (ADSL) one. FTTC is good. Use to get sub 1.5Mb, now get 60Mb.

Sky have two networks - one using BT's gear, the other using there own gear. The latter is far far better but only on the bigger exchanges.

Yep it does, I'm feeling a lot better about this finally. I'll go with FTTC, going to make some phone calls tomorrow and sort it out whether Sky can provide it or will I need to switch to BT.

[Navigator Six]

The physical line to your house is the same for all ISPs, but (I think) the hardware at the exchange is not, and you can run into performance differences there. In any event, you should get BT Infinity; it's awesome.

This is what BT will install in your house in order to make Infinity work (this is also what makes it not-impossible for them to get 80Mb down "the same phone line"):



The bit on the left comes out from your master socket (which they can relocate at the cost of sealing off the master socket from use -- they did this in my house), and the bit on the right is the Infinity modem (or something like that). The outgoing cable plugs into your router.

I'm not at home and can't give you a Speedtest result, but it's something like 73Mb down and 15 up.

[Itiken]

Out of interest, what do you NEED 100mb/s for?

As if it's anything to do with downloads, you will get jumped on very quickly by any Uk ISP, as we pretty much all now monitor people for that stuff, and shift them into a "herp derp torrenting at peak hours" group, and nerf the shit out of their/your dl speed. it's also worth reading up on the tyep of service, contention ratios, and check your local area of usage.

If it's for something legit, then get a business line, as you get better contention ratios with them (google it)

With regards to sky - you are looking to see if you are near an unbundled exchange. Easynet opened up a lot in cities at the start of this millennium, adn sky carried on a bit, but the more remote / rural places, like Stockport, got ignored.

[Cosmin]

As I wrote:

I have a huge Steam game collection that I don't want to keep installed (given the price per GB the HDDs sport these days) but that I'd like to play when I want (that being the point). I want to use video calls and make use of the HD camera I have. Also stream 1080p youtubz without interruptions.

To get to numbers, around 300 games with an average size of 3-5GB each. Now multiply this by 4 computers. Also bear in mind that HD video calls are utter crap with ADSL unless you shut down any network traffic. And 1080p keeps stuttering even with faster connections.

Traffic monitoring by ISPs is simply intrusive and silly and usually done really wrong, this is why there's a general consensus that all the user-level internet connections in western Europe are subpar (extremely expensive and way too slow) - and I have friends in most European countries that cry all day about this, with excess of tears in Belgium/Netherlands/Germany. If I do reinstall my OS (which I do rather infrequently on my main PCs) and I don't have the space to backup 800GB of Steam Games, my bandwidth is going to go down because of the sudden traffic spike? For using a legal service? Prepare to get sued in this case , as tech support has its head up its back end so far that it's coming out of their mouth - see this topic for example.

Can you tell me why are UK ISPs monitoring and restricting VPN connections? Oh, wait, you really need to see what I'm using my internet connection for, right?

And no, I am not willing to pay for a business line, the normal internet contracts are expensive enough, thank you.


As a reference, in my home country the cheapest 100MBps line (note the capital B please, yes, they use Gigabit networks) is around £10. Now I can understand that in civilized countries you can't run fiber optics through the neighbour's backyard (as done in my country lol) without any repercussions, but the infrastructure level for the country's level in the UK is simply subpar and I'm just being gentle. I understand it has to be somehow expensive. But all of that combined with the traffic monitoring and limiting (which I evidently suspected but I ended up calling myself paranoid) make up for a really poor experience of what should be a free network, unencumbered by laws and regulations.

As far as I've seen, the internet usage in the UK never goes past facebook checking and e-mail usage for a vast majority of the users. So what's with the "peak" hours?

And since when torrents are illegal to start with? Eve-files offers lots of Eve related videos that aren't illegal and one can use the torrent protocol to download them - which is, in fact, safer for the user (hash-check ftw).

/rant.

[Itiken]

Steam, Youtube, and other 'tings like that are 'often' eg pretty much always excluded from traffic shaping. eg I've had downloads / torrenting capped during time X and still had steam running at 1mbs, wher as other times, they have combined to the 1mb/s.

From an engineering perspective, it makes perfect sense.

This reminds me of customers who jump up and down demanding 622meg lines installing, so they can voip/videoconference over them

No-one ever said torents are illegal. It's juts that 99.999995% of the content is, and more accurately, without traffic shaping, they swamp carrier backbones to the point where higher payign customers get degraded service. Consumer conenctions really are bottom of the barrel when it comes to 'care' by carriers.

The rest of that is terrible derp though. Maybe take a breath
eg:
http://failheap-challenge.com/showth...-by-Sky-UK-ISP is bullshit.

Can you tell me why are UK ISPs monitoring and restricting VPN connections?

they don't.

Prepare to get sued in this case

gl hf

[stormyfs-shitpoastin]

WELCOME TO THE GLORIOUS NATION OF GREAT BRITAIN!

Our politicians are just as slimy and corrupt as eastern europeans ones, only get paid more, our judiciary still wears silly wigs and dresses from the 1600s, and privacy is a bought priviledge instead of a right.
We also have 'free' healthcare (at the cost of your health) and our other welfare systems are still operating in the same way they were upon their creation, in 1906!

Basically the UK net traffic is being monitored on conditions set by people who don't know what they're doing.
You'll also notice if you read all the legal trash that the ISP gets you to sign, that they cannot guarantee speeds of x and "use traffic-shaping on heavy users during peak times" or words to those effects.
AFAIK, every UK ISP has those clauses written in, due to the shitty copper-based phone network they have to piggyback on (Victorian England, yo!) although they are starting to roll out fiber networks across the country.

As for your phone reception, quite a few buildings date in London date from 1670 onwards and are either incredibly thick-walled or reinforced with iron, lighter buildings with structural steel only really came about with buildings like Canary Wharf in the 1980s... Even the Barbican Estate from the 1960s is a heavy concrete structure.

The peak hours are for business, banking mainly, so their shit is up to date.

[Navigator Six]

BT claims to only throttle P2P stuff, which seems like not such a big deal (and wouldn't matter for downloading Steam games). I'm curious how they detect that, though: are they using DPI which you could get around using encrypted torrents, or is there some easier way of detecting that kind of traffic?

[stormyfs-shitpoastin]

They're probably really shit and just go "well, you have 20 connections inbound, must be p2p"

[Cosmin]

Deep breath taken.

Steam running at 1mbps is just plain terrible, it takes hours for a modern game to download and install. Time is money even more when that time is one's spare time.

As I said, I perfectly understand the engineering bit. The thing is if the torrents swamp the infrastructure then the infrastructure is derping imho, not me. Intensive torrent usage is something I've experienced on networks with a lot less pretense than the UK ones (as I said, cables hung everywhere and stuff like that, one of the excuses they offered when all the network went down for a couple of hours was that a truck ran over the fibre) and never experienced increased lag or ping or decreased traffic speeds. And Y!/Skype video conferences ran smootly in HD.

I also understand that the higher paying customers are the buttery part and they get care^2. But the consumers do make for quite an important part of the business (or at least they should). Also interesting percentage there, did a study on that? Of course I'm not vouching for anyone, but why should people that use the protocols for legal stuff be thrown in with the scum? I gave Eve files as an example, others might be Linux distros sites, Humble Indie Bundle 5 has 24GB, etc.

BTGuard is blocked on Sky and Three, either the service (VPN connection) or the site or both. Randomly for the latter 2. Oh, yes, it's part of the torrent plague

Probably the FHC blocking is BS. I don't know. Then why is the customer care digging a grave for the ISP by fueling raeg? Aren't they screened when hired? Trained? Yesterday I got bounced between chats with BT between billing (weren't trained to offer Infinity info), broadband (they asked for a contract number, I only wanted information) and sales (where I got fed up and decided to call them instead), explaining my queries four times (because broadband support had trouble understanding stuff) and losing a lot of precious time. Saved the logs for future hilarious references.

As I said, I'm opened to communication and I appreciate even people pretending to do stuff to help, but sometimes I need to take a lot of deep breaths


LE: Steam, GOG, Origin all use p2p protocols afaik, btw.

due to the shitty copper-based phone network they have to piggyback on (Victorian England, yo!)

although they are starting to roll out fiber networks across the country