can it do a barrel roll?
can it do a barrel roll?
Or maybe, if it never fires a shot it will be priceless?Originally Posted by Dirk Magnum
Arguably yes, probably. I'll admit that.
But as you might have guessed by now, I is really mad about this stupidity.
Let's do some quick maths:
Let's say Norway has to pay 200 Million Dollars per unit, which is a very low estimate, because not even the US military gets it for that price.
This means, those 52 planes will cost Norway 10.2 Billion $. Since it is a given, that the JSM program wouldn't take place without it, we have to substract the 4.2 Billion Dollars that are estimated as sales potential of the missiles, giving them the benefit to take those numbers as granted (what I doubt as well).
So one can argue, that those 52 planes only cost 6 billion $ to Norway.
52 Dassault Raffale would cost Norway approx. 4.68 billion $, giving them an all round better plane, but this isn't the point of this post. Compared to the F-35 deal, this would give them a freed budget of 1.32 billion $.
If you'd want to create 450 jobs with that kind of budget, you could invest the staggering amount of 2.93 million $ per job. I'd say this would probably do it just as well.
Hi. I'm from canada and we're doing the same thing here. We're apparently going to buy 65 of these fucking things and the situation is about the same. We can hate our government's waste together!
The best part is that it's our "fiscally conservative" government that's doing it. Gotta love the right wingers.
you do realise we are a few months off making a selection on what to upgrade the increasingly worn out F-16's with right ?
you realise that piece of shit is liable to be replace the F-16 on a 1-0,75 basis netting us around 52 of the feckless things right ?
i still hope saner voices prevail and Denmark ends up getting a Gripen NG type aircraft, costing about a third of that Lockheed junkheap.
uhh sure.
except the tailhook does not seem to work as intended, because the airframe is designed wrong. up until mid 2010 the F-35B did not actually fit together, and it has fuck all to do with the other variants, and the list just goes on and on.
but most importantly, in a age where armed conflict between equal parties seem unlikely its just TOO FUCKING EXPENSIVE at this point, you get everything the F-35 does (except stealth) for much much less elsewhere, even the otherwise epic failwhale called the Typhoon is a better bargain. pro tip, modern Air to Air combat is likely to be about who has the most powerful AWACS, Data links and the AMRAAM changed the nature of aerial combat to a almost hilarious degree, to the point where turning on the radar in the intercepting plane is optional, only not everybody can afford big expensive AWACS planes, and turning on the radar in a stealth plane is a bit like turning on a torch at night, people can see you.
and the typhoon is nothing short of the biggest pan-european
2 words
Dassault Mirage
so no, Dassault are not new-comers in this new fangled jet fighter buisness, and their planes tend to be less maintenance intensive compared to equivalent American planes, as well as noticeably cheaper.
Last edited by Liare; June 15 2012 at 07:47:40 PM.
I did not know this but it doesn't surprise me at allyou do realise we are a few months off making a selection on what to upgrade the increasingly worn out F-16's with right ?
you realise that piece of shit is liable to be replace the F-16 on a 1-0,75 basis netting us around 52 of the feckless things right ?
i still hope saner voices prevail and Denmark ends up getting a Gripen NG type aircraft, costing about a third of that Lockheed junkheap.
I also recently discovered that we have tanks and a fucking submarine
The entire idea of a Danish military seems hilariously retarded to me. I mean, the only thing we actually gain from it is that USA likes us a bit more, right? And we could accomplish that without billions and billions worth of submarines and tanks and combat aircraft
Oh, and we scare some African pirates, too. Which is cool, I guess.
Maybe you can help bomb the piss out of Syria.
Why are they striking joints?
The fact that India bought the Rafale is amazing on its own. India is Russia's main partner with the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, a joint proect between Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics. I almost expected them to stick with Russian planes all the way, which in my humble opinion is a smart move for capable and somewhat more affordable planes anyway.
Looking at wiki, it tells me that India has always bought planes from France and Russia, with MiG-29, 27, 21 and Mirage 2000, SEPECAT Jaguar, Beriev A-50 for AWACS, transport is mixed Boeing, Ilyushin and Antonov.
Either way, there are a crap ton of better choices than the F-35 or 22. Properly upgraded F-16s and F-15s or F/A-18s would be more than adequate for both the prestige of a proper fighter jet air force and offer better value for money and be American as well. I am a fan of the Russian planes, the Frenchies are nice too. However air forces need to upgrade their COINC capable plane inventory. Those are interesting planes, cheap, versatile and very useful.
nevar forget
Oh, it seems you are interested in having a discussion. Ok, let us first present the facts.uhh sure.
except the tailhook does not seem to work as intended, because the airframe is designed wrong. up until mid 2010 the F-35B did not actually fit together, and it has fuck all to do with the other variants, and the list just goes on and on.
but most importantly, in a age where armed conflict between equal parties seem unlikely its just TOO FUCKING EXPENSIVE at this point, you get everything the F-35 does (except stealth) for much much less elsewhere, even the otherwise epic failwhale called the Typhoon is a better bargain. pro tip, modern Air to Air combat is likely to be about who has the most powerful AWACS, Data links and the AMRAAM changed the nature of aerial combat to a almost hilarious degree, to the point where turning on the radar in the intercepting plane is optional, only not everybody can afford big expensive AWACS planes, and turning on the radar in a stealth plane is a bit like turning on a torch at night, people can see you.
and the typhoon is nothing short of the biggest pan-european
Our air defence forces started the process of reviewing four relevant options which where Saab 39 Gripen, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, and offcourse JSF. Both Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon withdrew from the evaluation because of alleged favourism from the Norwegians in tailoring the tender criterias to the wishes of Lockheed Martin. After this we stood left with two options, either Gripen or JSF. The evaluation of these two aeroplanes where based solely on operative criterias and ended in favour for the F-35 after a recommendation from the military.
After a solid analysis it showed that, although the JAS Gripen is a capable multi-role combat aircraft, it does not cover all the needs we have for our next generation fighter plane. It also was concluded that the total cost of Gripen was much higher than the total cost of F-35. The Swedes didn't initially agree on this, offcourse, but in the latest hearing in parlament, even the Swedes agreed that the F-35 was the right choice for Norway.
I also have to point out that the investment costs is just a fracture of the total cost in owning these aeroplanes. The operative demands set aside, from an economical standpoint the F-35 was also the most sound choice in the long term.
Whatever Rafale or Typhoon was a better choice I don't know, but it is irrelevant as they didn't want to go through the evaluation and as such, wasn't viable candidates in the first place.
how could they conclude the cost of the gripen to be higher than the cost of the jsf when the jsf doesn't even have a cost yet?
Helgur m8, you gotta be trolling.
I am grabbing a quote from wiki (which I just read) of the leading soldiers of your country:
Not a joke.Rear Admiral Arne Røksund of Norway estimated that his country's 52 F-35 fighter jets will cost $769 million each over their operational lifetime.
The fact that both suppliers of the Rafale and the Typhoon bailed out was that your politicians were utter retards willing to waste billions of $ because, well how do I put this, they are retards.
The lifetime cost of a Rafale is but a fraction of that quoted sum for the F-35 (and I am talking less than 50 percent here). It's beyond any point of stupid. There can't be anyone to argue that.
And the multiple quotes out there of so called military experts are talking about a field of operation, that has been relevant in the years of 1946 to 1989 and are completely irrelevant since then.
I could really slap peoples faces for this utter waste of ressources.
There's a lot of politics behind military procuring ...and a lot of pocket padding. So don't be so surprised when countries take retarded decisions.
Hey, I just met you,
and this is crazy
but here's my number,
so call me, maybe?
4,2 billion U$ for 450 jobs, what a fantastic return
First of all:
Secondly, at the time of the Evaluation the Gripen NG wasn't even built yet, unlike the F-35. The Gripen Demo was, but that was a completely different aircraft. And as I said it is the long term costs that dictate how sound this contract is economically. JAS-39 won't be built in large numbers, the JSF will, which in itself will dictate the maintenance costs immensely.
Anyway, if you compare the aircraft side to side, the F-35 has a better operational range, better thrust, and much better load capacity. The F-35 is a better aircraft all in all.
This. All and every so this.
Some individuals get stupidly rich over shit like this. There's no benefit for the country or its inhabitants. None. This is basically what makes me so angry.
I guess if I'd have been born in the 60'ies I'd have gotten a heart attack long ago, because shit like this was even more prevalent back then.
Jesus christ, so much wasted money.
On the other hand: When have social workers ever actually done something relevant affecting the national economy?
just posting to confirm that the Danish military are comedy gold.
I went on attachment in the late '90's to a Signals Regiment in Krefeld. During my time there we went on exercse to the Hartz mountains and ended up on top of a fuck off great big hill at one of those NATO comms bunkers.
The detachment was made up as follows:
2 Belgians in the bunker. behind one of the biggest, most heavy metal doors I have ever seen. I saw them walk in with several crates of beer at the start of the exercise and they came out a week later smelling a touch ripe and looking hungry.
A British Ptarmigan detachment with full field kitchen (and one ofthe best military chefs I ever met - damn that guy could cook)
A company of Bundeswehr for local defence (their CO was a penis and honestly would not have looked out of place in an SS uniform complete with monacle. He even had a limp)
A platoon of Danes. I don't know why they were there since they spent most of their time drinking, watching football and generally arsing about.
example:
We got orders in that the whole area was to undertake a full NBC exercise which involved the British and Germans in full NBC kit with all the chemical monitors going and checks every half hour. The Belgians... well apparently they knew about it but no one saw them so it didnt matter. The Danes...... well they had actually done some training that morning which seemed to involve alot of shouting and running about and then spent the afternoon holding an impromptu karaoke concert, drinking and attempting to surf down the side of the bunker on bin bags they had nicked off the field kitchen.
I'm glad the Russians didn't decide that day to come over for a little shopping and light relief. (and yes I know the Cold war was over then but I was convinced throughout the '90's and still am today that the end of the Cold War is nothing more than a dastardly commie trick and that they have sent the Poles as a preliminary invasion force - IM FUCKING WATCHING YOU RAZOR)
Listen, if I am wrong please do prove so otherwise by coming up with arguments other than "you are trolling" and "your politicians were utter retards willing to waste billions of $ because, well how do I put this, they are retards". I am not a stranger to admitting I am wrong but you have to put a little more energy into convincing me than this ;-)
But anyway that is a futile discussion as they withdrew from the process and wouldn't make any offer, so there is no point in debating JSF vs Eurofighter and Rafale.
So when we if I am understanding you correctly, our military when evaluating JSF contra Gripen was talking about criterias not relevant to our operational needs as of this day? Can you back that up with any credible sources or any other material?
Shift in US politics regarding Norwayish claims outside the 200-nautical-mile zone around Svalbard and Jan Mayen?
Last edited by iLOL; June 15 2012 at 10:23:44 PM.
To give you an example. Romania decided some 4-5-6 years ago to buy some new airplanes so they could say "hey, we're in nato, we have some planes, someone look at us". After a lot of lengthy discussions the best thing they could come up with was buying old F-16s from the Americans, then buy avionics upgrades from the Israelians and then have the americans service them. At that time buying new Grippens would have cost about 40% and they were new airplanes with brand new avionics, etc. Thanks to the crisis they didn't buy anything.
Hey, I just met you,
and this is crazy
but here's my number,
so call me, maybe?
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