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Thread: The TV Thread

  1. #8881

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Well he did say it may be an unpopular opinion.

    Woke-trek rubbed me the wrong way when Voyager came out, I got over it, but I understand the sentiment.
    You do know Kirk and Uhura had the first inter-racial kiss on US TV, right?

    Trek has been woke since the very start.

  2. #8882

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    progressive for the time (then) = they grew up with it, so it's normal to them

    progressive for the time (now) = "Why are you ruining that thing I like?!"

    The socially conservative 'Trek fan paradox

  3. #8883
    rufuske's Avatar
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    What people mean by woke trek is bad writing disguised as a progressive for current time and any sort of criticism with that in mind being deflected as narrow mindness or downright misogyny or racism etc. Old trek also didn't shy from tackling such issues but did it with some of the best writing in contemporary tv (DS9 especially).

  4. #8884
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodj Blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Well he did say it may be an unpopular opinion.

    Woke-trek rubbed me the wrong way when Voyager came out, I got over it, but I understand the sentiment.
    You do know Kirk and Uhura had the first inter-racial kiss on US TV, right?

    Trek has been woke since the very start.
    Oh, sure, and the first bridge crew was very diverse for it's time. I think the network pushed back, made Roddenberry pick between a Vulcan or a female first officer (from The Cage), Spock won.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  5. #8885

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    I think the original animated series had the first furry officer.

  6. #8886
    Joshua Foiritain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    I disagree. You could for instance gender swap either of Stamets/Culber and their story would work exactly the same. The characters are badly written but they're not flat representations of some minority group.
    Err doesnt that just support my point though? The fact that you can casually gender swap someone without it having any effect on their character/story means its not actually part of the character/personalty, its just a label that got stuck on afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    No women, no gays, no nonwhites
    Get rid of all the gross aliens too please.



  7. #8887
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Foiritain View Post
    Most of the characters being 2 dimensional cardboard cutouts whose singular notable character trait is being part of "minority group X" creates a very designed-by-committee diversity that looks and feels fake.
    I'd say if you can just swap out the "minority group X" character trait for the "heterosexual default" then it is not their singular notable character trait.

    With the writing that is there the sexual orientation doesn't matter for the example that I gave (in my view). So I don't see a problem with having a homosexual couple there, because it would be just as much a "label stuck on afterwards" with a heterosexual couple.

  8. #8888
    Caldrion Dosto's Avatar
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    Since im late as usual to the party i want to second that Arcane is and unexpectedly good production and script. Surprisingly good script, it seems to me like they borrowed a bit of style from Hellblade for certain things (Which is a good thing).

  9. #8889
    Lowa [NSN]'s Avatar
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    This is now only on Paramount+ or something right? I am kinda thankful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    I would create a dragon made out of vaginas. Then I would create a dragon made out of dicks. Then I would have them fight to the death.

  10. #8890
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Foiritain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    I disagree. You could for instance gender swap either of Stamets/Culber and their story would work exactly the same. The characters are badly written but they're not flat representations of some minority group.
    Err doesnt that just support my point though? The fact that you can casually gender swap someone without it having any effect on their character/story means its not actually part of the character/personalty, its just a label that got stuck on afterwards.
    In a story about a future where these identities have ceased to matter in the social psyche isn't that what you would expect?
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  11. #8891
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    The problem isn't the identities of fictional characters, it's the shit writing and acting that ruins existing franchises and convinces studios and TV executives that SiFi doesn't sell.

    The whole political culture war shit is more a way of people who have no clue how to write a show that people might actually watch to deflect blame for being shit. It's "It's not our terrible writing and shit characters that keeps viewers away, it's those terrible bigots complaining and refusing to watch".

    These are the same people who state "We didn't make it for you!" but then it seems they made it for nobody.

    I never watched Discovery or Picard but the whole NuTrek has been uniformly bad. At least OldTrek had good and bad.

  12. #8892

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    Succession is so good.

  13. #8893

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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Overspark View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Foiritain View Post
    Its not bad but it does stand out exactly because the characters are poorly written. Most of the characters being 2 dimensional cardboard cutouts whose singular notable character trait is being part of "minority group X"
    While I understand the sentiment there's something really weird about saying characters stand out because they aren't white males.
    If something is marketed to gay males, which Star Trek is with its heavily male fanbase of loser Trekkies, I don't have with a problem with expecting more male than female characters.
    FYP

    This whole gender debate irritates me, though. Thinking about female leas in my childhood/youth*) - which are far and few, I never thaught "oh it's a women", but "she's good!" or admittedly "she's cute"**).

    Perhaps this was the case, because I was brought up in a family with an overall female majority (4 aunts vs. 2 oncles, 4 female vs. 1 male cousin) and also started my work life in a female dominanted industry (tourism) abd spent the overwhelming majority of my career there.

    *) The Avegers, Alien, ST:VOY
    **) Paula from Daktari

  14. #8894
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redmoore View Post
    Succession is so good.

  15. #8895
    Miriam Sasko's Avatar
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    So, I'm not watching STD, but my 2cents:

    Maximum diversity is restrictive. If I have a crew that is supposed to consist of the best people for their job in a world where skin colour, race, gender and sexual orientation are of no concern, and they are all white human (heterosexual) men, it's obvious bullshit. However, if every single one is distinctive from all others by at least one of these metrics until every possible combination is represented, it starts to look like that was the goal all along. So, obviously, skin colour, gender etc. still do matter in this world where they are not supposed to, and they trump individual qualification. After all, it's extremely unlikely that it would pan out that way if every single position was filled with the most qualified individual.

    Honestly, I can see where this annoys people and serves as an easy point of critique when the other aspects of a show let them down.

  16. #8896

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    So, what's different then in STD compared to ST:TNG?

    - Human white male captain + 1st officer
    - Android science officer
    - Klingon security offficer
    - Human white female medical officer
    - Half-Betazoid counceller
    - Handicaped human black engineer

    Sounds quite diverse to me. Enumerate the characters of DS9 and VOY and they're also quite diverse. Again: no one complained back then.

  17. #8897
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Since im late as usual to the party i want to second that Arcane is and unexpectedly good production and script. Surprisingly good script, it seems to me like they borrowed a bit of style from Hellblade for certain things (Which is a good thing).
    Just watched the first episode, apparently the source material is just a fighting game? From what I can tell, there isn't really any background that I'm missing from being unfamiliar with the game.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  18. #8898
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Since im late as usual to the party i want to second that Arcane is and unexpectedly good production and script. Surprisingly good script, it seems to me like they borrowed a bit of style from Hellblade for certain things (Which is a good thing).
    Just watched the first episode, apparently the source material is just a fighting game? From what I can tell, there isn't really any background that I'm missing from being unfamiliar with the game.
    Just watch it, no need to know anything about League of Legends (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Legends)

  19. #8899
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Since im late as usual to the party i want to second that Arcane is and unexpectedly good production and script. Surprisingly good script, it seems to me like they borrowed a bit of style from Hellblade for certain things (Which is a good thing).
    Just watched the first episode, apparently the source material is just a fighting game? From what I can tell, there isn't really any background that I'm missing from being unfamiliar with the game.
    Just watch it, no need to know anything about League of Legends (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Legends)
    Sure, I saw that, but just wanted to confirm there is no real plot or storyline to the game. Presumably, the show mainly just shares the background and some characters with the game.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  20. #8900
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Since im late as usual to the party i want to second that Arcane is and unexpectedly good production and script. Surprisingly good script, it seems to me like they borrowed a bit of style from Hellblade for certain things (Which is a good thing).
    Just watched the first episode, apparently the source material is just a fighting game? From what I can tell, there isn't really any background that I'm missing from being unfamiliar with the game.
    Just watch it, no need to know anything about League of Legends (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Legends)
    Sure, I saw that, but just wanted to confirm there is no real plot or storyline to the game. Presumably, the show mainly just shares the background and some characters with the game.
    That's what I heard as well.

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