[DEVPOST] Ship balancing - round 2

[Scopique]

Give Exhumers more EHP. And I say this as someone who has ganked hundreds of them in high sec.

I'd also like to see a buff for mining ships. Not necessarily just EHP, but make them easier to get in, more versatile, more fun to use, etc. Everyone complains about high costs, but on the other hand miners are on the very low end of the food chain, especially in highsec. And that's where new players start after all. As a new player you quickly learn mining is the most boring profession, and when you are almost done with this terrible job someone pops in and either steals your can or ganks your ship, then laughs at you. I don't mine, never will. But I'd like miners to have more fun because that means more real people would go out and do it.

New/changed frigs and destroyers is also great. I already love those they changed recently. There is really no need for a mining frig for each race since no one uses them after a day or two. An "expendable, fast miner able to ninja-mine in hostile environments" could maybe make people mine in lowsec again?

[Mfume]

Also what is with the "tier 3s nerfed Drakes" bullshit. They "nerfed" all BC+ sized ships by the same amount. A Drake will still survive being shot by a Tornado/Talos for twice as long as a cane or any other BC really.

When did I say that other BCs were exempt?

Looking at your KB actually tells me that you only roam with 20+ man blobs...

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&...ll_id=13486931 - huurrrr
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&...ll_id=13473102 - durrrr

Admittedly, I've been pretty much inactive in the last few months because of burnout + AT shit, so if you want to mock me on the basis of virtually no solo kills, go ahead.

...where Drakes simply aren't a problem any more. They only are so mobile and do so much DPS. 5 Drakes + support shooting your own SMALL logiless gang over 80km in turn though...

They counter nano, therefore they are imbalanced? Or do you find yourself complaining about arty canes as well? Also: I would take 2x 100MN Tengus against 10-15 Drakes, nbd. 1x Scimi + dualprop Cyna can nearly tank 20 of them, assuming you aren't dumb and getting Cynas webbed or the Scimi hard-tackled.

[OrangeAfroMan]

More important than balancing ships is the need to make non-consentual PVP happen more often. Removal of Local in nullsec etc.

[RoemySchneider]

no point in balancing until they adopt a "every pilot/ship is equal" basis and +/- the stats from there

... and include a proper sig/sig 'bracket' in the tracking formula


until then, bigger will always be better
... and most boring

[Alain Colcer]

I love how you guys try to theorize countless arguments about roles for ships and fleet composition, around "mixed" gangs and whatnot.

Listen, in a warfare scenario where positioning means shit (as in get probed in 4 secs and warp directly on top of you), single-type weapon systems with uniform range and damage projection, along with uniform speed, is one of the only answers.

Drakes provide that, Hurricanes give a variant of that with better volley damage. Tier3 BCs, which i believe are a bit OP, are even better at answering the same issues.

To really have a mixed gang type with multiple roles and a mix/match of ship designs and weapon systems, you need to provide room on the battlefield for all those roles to exist. Given the inherent design in player transition between systems, or the sinergies of having specific-oriented tanks in your fleet (armor or shield not both), then it is a moot point to attemp to give amarr+gallente+minmatar+caldari mashups the best outcome, cause it will never happen realistically, its an FCs nightmare.

What needs to happen is that certain "tasks" can be done with a variety of ships, but some of the ships excel at them and others are sub-par.

Blasters ships and autocannon ships shold be the close quarter deathmachines the eve-gods meant them to be...
rails and lasers should be the snipers prefered weapon, with the ability to actually snipe, you know, gaining an advantage by range.

The whole point of redesigning roles as it was presented in fanfest (combat, support, etc) is to provide a framework where all ships have uses, and some of those excel at specific scenarios, therefore an FC will choose to have a "light" mix covering some potential combat scenarios but still focus the fleet around a single doctrine and be effective with it.

Ship balancing as it is done by CCP right now is the way to go, the complicated issue is that it will take time until they reach the kind of ships we are all exploiting right now

[jonesbones]

until then, bigger will always be better
... and most boring

Smaller ships rape larger ships all the time. With the changes to AFs and Dessies they are destroying ships 2 to 3 classes above them easily. Look at what Fweddit is doing in FW. Using swarms of t1 shit fit Thrashers to take down BC fleets.

Of course you have logged a serious month of PVP in EVE since Jan 2011. Why do you even post here? Your opinion on no basis on facts or actual play time. You are pathetic.

[jonesbones]

Tier3 BCs, which i believe are a bit OP, are even better at answering the same issues.

To really have a mixed gang type with multiple roles and a mix/match of ship designs and weapon systems, you need to provide room on the battlefield for all those roles to exist.

Tier3 BCs are not OP. They are expensive and made of paper. You cannot reliably keep them alive using logistics. They are the definition of "glass cannon" in EVE.

Mixed fleets work. The most impressive subcap fleet comp used in 0.0 over the past year was SOLAR combining and Alpha Maelstrom doctrine with AHACs. They were consistently beating larger fleet with superior super(caps).

[RoemySchneider]

until then, bigger will always be better
... and most boring

Smaller ships rape larger ships all the time. With the changes to AFs and Dessies they are destroying ships 2 to 3 classes above them easily. Look at what Fweddit is doing in FW. Using swarms of t1 shit fit Thrashers to take down BC fleets.

Of course you have logged a serious month of PVP in EVE since Jan 2011. Why do you even post here? Your opinion on no basis on facts or actual play time. You are pathetic.

Smaller ships rape larger ships all the time. With the changes to AFs and Dessies they are destroying ships 2 to 3 classes above them easily. Look at what Fweddit is doing in FW. Using swarms of t1 shit fit Thrashers to take down BC fleets.

Using swarms of t1 shit fit Thrashers to take down BC fleets.

swarms

but props for looking up my main character d('' d) - free hint: my alts are (somewhat) named after actresses as well.

now go back to your FW, leave ship&fleet designs to the mathematically capable and keep relying on the fits others have come up with, kthxbai

[Shin_getter]

no point in balancing until they adopt a "every pilot/ship is equal" basis and +/- the stats from there

Lol, and you call this an RPG?

[Alain Colcer]

Tier3 BCs, which i believe are a bit OP, are even better at answering the same issues.

To really have a mixed gang type with multiple roles and a mix/match of ship designs and weapon systems, you need to provide room on the battlefield for all those roles to exist.

Tier3 BCs are not OP. They are expensive and made of paper. You cannot reliably keep them alive using logistics. They are the definition of "glass cannon" in EVE.

Mixed fleets work. The most impressive subcap fleet comp used in 0.0 over the past year was SOLAR combining and Alpha Maelstrom doctrine with AHACs. They were consistently beating larger fleet with superior super(caps).

The talos with no equipment whatsoever and all skills at 5 -> 6.1secs to alignment max speed of 275m/s
The brutix with no equipment whatsoever and all skills at 5 -> 8.3secs to alignment max speed of 194m/s

I would say the glass cannon on the talos is very "nano-ish".

Yes they are not meant for Tier3 + logistics setup, neither they are suitable for blackops drops, nor anything like that. However in numbers, specially tornadoes, they a formidable fleet composition considering their price/effectiveness and the fact they deliver damage with L-sized guns, which can be applied to BCs, BS and Capitals with great capacity, and to a lesser extent to smaller targets (depending on tranversal and sig radius).

I would say tier3 BCs do indeed pay homage to the naval concept of Battlecruisers, but in eve, they do break the mold, and do so quite well...i would call that "somewhat imbalanced" in context with the rest of the lineup.

Regardless if my point is valid or not specifically for Tier3 BCs, you mentioned a "mixed" fleet describing two very specific fleet doctrines, A-HAC and alpha maels.

You dont use an alpha fleet using rokhs, megas and tempest mixed with maelstroms.....so in effect what you describe is just 2 groups of pilots using very distinct fleet doctrines, to overlapp and cover MORE combat scenarios....which is perfectly aligned with my arguments above. You don't mix and match within one fleet, you do it with multiple fleets all covering specific operational zones.

In the example you give, i bet both fleets were handled by two different FCs, and therefore with markedly specific target sequence which is a very definitive winning factor in said engagement.

You cannot reliable make eagles+munnins and maels sit in the same spot of excellence, you need to provide a buffer of opportunities, and i truly believe that given the new overall warfare roles given to t1, t2, faction and t3, CCP will accomplish exactly that.

[jonesbones]

but props for looking up my main character d('' d) - free hint: my alts are (somewhat) named after actresses as well.

now go back to your FW, leave ship&fleet designs to the mathematically capable and keep relying on the fits others have come up with, kthxbai

Blah blah blah I'm a whiney faggot who doesn't play EVE anymore.

You cannot defend the statement "bigger is better". Look at this: http://ilaw.killmail.org/?a=kill_rel...ll_id=13543467

Just one example of primarily frigs taking on larger ships and easily succeeding. It's about pilot/fleet skill. Something you obviously do not understand, because you're shit.

[indeterminacy]

but props for looking up my main character d('' d) - free hint: my alts are (somewhat) named after actresses as well.

now go back to your FW, leave ship&fleet designs to the mathematically capable and keep relying on the fits others have come up with, kthxbai

Blah blah blah I'm a whiney faggot who doesn't play EVE anymore.

You cannot defend the statement "bigger is better". Look at this: http://ilaw.killmail.org/?a=kill_rel...ll_id=13543467

Just one example of primarily frigs taking on larger ships and easily succeeding. It's about pilot/fleet skill. Something you obviously do not understand, because you're shit.

Those kills too place over 90minutes. I too can camp a choke-point with frigs pick off scrubs.

And wtfisthisshit...bitching about local in a ship balance thread?

Let's get this straight - It makes no sense to remove local in a game that's as much about relationships between people as it is about :spaceships:....not to mention, if you want penaltyless PVP without local...go live in fucking [worm]hole! The environment already exists and you don't need to ruin everyone else's game to get it.

As for the new destroyers I'd like to see EWAR bonused dessies and the death of the largely useless EAFs.

[jonesbones]

I would say tier3 BCs do indeed pay homage to the naval concept of Battlecruisers, but in eve, they do break the mold, and do so quite well...i would call that "somewhat imbalanced" in context with the rest of the lineup.

How do they "break the mold"? They are glass cannons and typically have less EHP than buffer fit T1 Cruisers. Oracles and Geddons are very similarly priced, yet their ehp/dps/etc are very different.

In the example you give, i bet both fleets were handled by two different FCs, and therefore with markedly specific target sequence which is a very definitive winning factor in said engagement.

And why wouldn't they be? Have ever FCed a large fleet before? It's ridiculous to expect one person to be controlling capitals, line battleship, frigate bombing wings, interdiction ships, etc. These people, while all in the same fleet, will have separate "commanders" providing better supervision than a single person could hope for.

You cannot reliable make eagles+munnins and maels sit in the same spot of excellence, you need to provide a buffer of opportunities, and i truly believe that given the new overall warfare roles given to t1, t2, faction and t3, CCP will accomplish exactly that.

This already happens. Nulli and Nagas. Black Legion and Muninns. GSF and WhelpCanes. Everyone and Drakes.

I do not see just single ship type fleets out and about anymore. Well, besides maybe medium roaming gangs. FCs have come to realize that using ROCK is easily countered by PAPER. We've come a long way from BS vs AHACs vs Drakes.

[jonesbones]

Those kills too place over 90minutes. I too can camp a choke-point with frigs pick off scrubs.

As for the new destroyers I'd like to see EWAR bonused dessies and the death of the largely useless EAFs.

The only BCs I won't engage in a brawl frig by myself are Canes (dual neuts) and Myrms (dual webs with drones). On average is a single T1 frigate going to die to a T1 BC? Yes. And if you think something is wrong with that than I don't know how to help you.

And seriously, we want more EWAR platforms in EVE? Don't you faggots cry enough about ECM as it is? Fuck it, give me a Cormorant with 8 mids. Let the tears flow.

[indeterminacy]

I too am unsure how Tier3 BCs break the traditional mold of a BC. They are, in fact, the epitome of the concept.

Also, I have never (not once) whined about ECM. In fact, I love EWAR - it lets smaller ships/gangs fuck up bigger ships/gangs with panache.

give me a bonused Cormorant variant with 8 mids. Let the tears flow.

fyp

[RoemySchneider]

but props for looking up my main character d('' d) - free hint: my alts are (somewhat) named after actresses as well.

now go back to your FW, leave ship&fleet designs to the mathematically capable and keep relying on the fits others have come up with, kthxbai

Blah blah blah I'm a whiney faggot who doesn't play EVE anymore.

You cannot defend the statement "bigger is better". Look at this: http://ilaw.killmail.org/?a=kill_rel...ll_id=13543467

Just one example of primarily frigs taking on larger ships and easily succeeding. It's about pilot/fleet skill. Something you obviously do not understand, because you're shit.

well, if we're posting groups of engagements.... http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8454565

but hey... it's not like you don't know what i'm talking about: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12945126

[jonesbones]

Waah waah small ships are so useless and Tier 3s are unstoppable: https://a-killed.me/?a=kill_related&kll_id=716378

Play some EVE homey, it's actually a pretty balanced game right now.

[jonesbones]

All I do is whine and complain about a game I no longer play.

[Smuggo]

When tier3 BCs are rightfully nano-nerfed, Drakes and Canes will stand back out again.
...implying they're still not hugely over-represented in gameplay.

I've seen far fewer Drakes in the past 3 months*. And it's becoming increasingly fewer as more entities transition to Tier 3 based fleet comps. They are disproportionately represented on my killboard, since I've mostly been fighting the CFC and the CFC are one of the few remaining hold outs.

*Roughly the time it takes a large alliance to decide something is cool and skill into it.

I suppose you'd actually need to log into EVE to see this though, so it's understandable how you missed it.

There are still a fuck of a lot of drakes around. Dunno how you got the idea the Drake has gone out of fashion.

[RoemySchneider]

Waah waah small ships are so useless and Tier 3s are unstoppable: https://a-killed.me/?a=kill_related&kll_id=716378

Play some EVE homey, it's actually a pretty balanced game right now.

right.... another awesome kb link with one huginn in a glass cannon alpha fleet vs a swarm twice the size
but yeah... once every small ship has its mwd bloom bonus, it might finally be getting closer to eve being 'balanced'. we might even be using lolEAS
and then we could extend this new titan gun feature to BS guns because it seems only logical...

or, again, we could adjust the formula so we wouldnt need such rather large, individual band aids



and saying over and over again that i'm not playing doesnt make it true, much like all your other spewings