[DEVPOST] Ship balancing - round 2

[Mithfindel]

The simplest fix might be changing the behaviour to just breaking the locks.

One possibility would be of course decreasing maximum locked targets. (Counterable with autotargeters and signal amplifiers, in addition to ECCM.) This mechanic would likely need some kind of degrees of success, where the amount of maximum locked targets gets decreased more the more ECM beats sensor strength (with diminishing returns).

As for scripting, we might have a script to break locks (but allow locking while module cycles), and another script to decrease the amount of maximum locked targets (for the duration of the cycle). Case one works well with sensor damps (making locking slower, so time when locks are broken is increased). Case two is a bit more specific and makes possible to shut down ships altogether, but would ideally be balanced such that to shut down a ship you need a whole ship's worth of jammers. (If the targeted logistics ship is reduced to but a few targets, but not completely shut down, sensor damps would again have a role to increase locking and thus response time.) One way to help balance this could potentially be done by having the "lockbreaker" scripts have a bonus to ECM strength, but the "lock removing" script being restricted to (potentially nerfed) baseline.

(Default unscripted behaviour would need some thought - perhaps one of the above. This would be used for the ECM drones, as well.)

[RoemySchneider]

Falcon specialized in lock breaker module... That makes sense, cause everyone knows the Falcon/Rooks are always primary, so they a bonus like that would be a good replacement for the current ECM role.

so... they wouldnt have ecm anymore...?
then why would we still shoot them?

edit: hurrrr.... page was cached

[Sponk]

Solution: remove all ecm modules, except for ECM burst.

go.

[Mortalitis]

Why can we not have a balancing thread that does not turn into yet another ECM discussion.

[Duckslayer]

cos ecm needs nerfing to fuck

[AmaNutin]

Why can we not have a balancing thread that does not turn into yet another ECM discussion.

because it's always on our minds because :falcons:

[Lex Fasces]

engaged a gang earlier that had a falcon and a scorp backing a couple of drakes and other crap. they didnt have any other ewar and decided to go for 2 of the same type...

people dont train rapier or pilgrim alts either

[Resi]

I'm 90% sure if ECM does get addressed it won't be nerfed, they'll just make all other e-war as broken as it is.

[Meester]

ECM should just be based on strength and not chance. Means they [ecm modules] will ALWAYS jam a frigate unless the frigate is fitted with the modules to increase its sensor strength. So say an ion field projector II has a sensor strength of 25 enough to ALWAYS jam a kitsune HOWEVER if that kitsune fits a single eccm it will no longer be able to be jammed by that ion field projector II [or any other ion field projector II's that the ship has] except if its jammed by a blackbird/signal dispersion amplifier etc that increases the jammers strength. I suppose if the strength of the ecm is equal to the ships sensor stregth then it will jam it.

Basically a system of can jam/can not jam.

[Ophichius]

I'm 90% sure if ECM does get addressed it won't be nerfed, they'll just make all other e-war as broken as it is.

If this means the glorious return of 90% webs and pre-nerf nos I'm completely okay with this, and will immediately begin stockpiling Minmatar and Amarr recons.

-O

[OrangeAfroMan]

ECM should just be based on strength and not chance. Means they [ecm modules] will ALWAYS jam a frigate unless the frigate is fitted with the modules to increase its sensor strength. So say an ion field projector II has a sensor strength of 25 enough to ALWAYS jam a kitsune HOWEVER if that kitsune fits a single eccm it will no longer be able to be jammed by that ion field projector II [or any other ion field projector II's that the ship has] except if its jammed by a blackbird/signal dispersion amplifier etc that increases the jammers strength. I suppose if the strength of the ecm is equal to the ships sensor stregth then it will jam it.

Basically a system of can jam/can not jam.

That's similar to how ECM worked originally. If you had a Megathron with, say 25 sensor strength (pulled from ass) and a Scorp with 5 Multispec jammers that had 5 strength each, you could permajam the Megathron by running all 5 on him.

Now THAT system was really fucked, not to say that ECM isn't currently OP.

[xanral]

Sort of a spin off of an earlier idea.

I'd be okay with ECM working the way it does currently and an ECCM module (either med or low slot) having its current effect + you have 1 target you can lock despite being ECMed.

So ship with no ECCM gets ECMed, 0 targets locked.
Ship with 1 ECCM gets ECMed, 1 targets lockable.
Ship with 2 ECCM gets ECMed, 2 targets lockable.

Ideally I'd have it so if you had more than your ECCM in targets locked all targets are lost but if you have your ECCM in targets locked you keep them (no randomization needed and requires some planning on the part of the ECCM equipped player/fleet).

So ECM would still have an effect, you can equip a module that will allow you to keep fighting with ECM present but you still have a penalty when you're under its effects.

[Xiang Jiao]

Yes, let's make a half a dozen more ships in Eve useless. Best idea I've ever read!

[xanral]

Yes, let's make a half a dozen more ships in Eve useless. Best idea I've ever read!

Yeah ECM on the field probably can make half a dozen ships useless... oh sorry you meant if ECM had a better counter, my bad.

[Spartan Dax]

Just because all your suggestions are terribad.

Old post mildly edited. http://community.eveonline.com/ingam...hreadID=954992




So what is the challenge? Find a way to keep ecm usefull so that RR gangs don't start running amok but also doesn't screw with the lone pilot (ECM pilot as well as target).

We've seen from time to time how morons have floated the idea of jamming reducing the number of targeting slots, fools we've said, all you need is one target to shoot. But what if it wasn't all that bloody stupid with a slot reduction mechanic?


(Disclaimer)
All current ECM, ECCM modules values currently in eve are not valid for this mechanic. Forget about 14 points of jamming strength. Also all Values in the following are for displaying the mechanic and not a suggestion for future module values.


Ships in Eve has a set number of locking slots ranging from 3-10 which is modified by the characters Targeting and Multitasking skills but first things first. How would this new jammer work?

x = Used slot

o = unused slot

- = jammed slot


Imagine your ships targeting slots all empty, you start filling them up by locking a hostile and 2 friendlies for RR reps and a secondary for good measure. You've now filled 4 slots out of your imaginary 7 slots total.

X X X X O O O

Next you get hit by an ECM which under this system will NOT be chance based in it's function but only in it's effect. Lets use a jamming strength of 3.5. Basically the idea is; 1 point fills up one slot and decimal points uses the chance based mechanic of old, IE 0.5 strength = 50% chance to fill a slot. In this particular instance we get lucky and jam for full effect so 4 slots jammed.

However, which slots get jammed is random, making the effects of ECM unpredictable. In this instance we get this effect.

X - - X - - O

Ok, the jammer hit for full strength... but the target is still fighting back and RR repping one of his friends. Time to apply another jammer. Enter stacking penalty. 3.5 x 0.83 = 2.905. We get lucky again and get full effect of the jammer. Another 3 slots jammed leaving us this.

- - - - - - -

Ship neutralized. Now now, hold your horses, we're not done yet but lets discuss the above first. Basically what the target experiences is the effect of an ECM burst, lock gets broken but he can immediatly reaquire lock until he runs out of locking slots.


In the above scenario we had an ECM ship with 3.5 strength jammer. What affects this value on the target side?

Enter sensor strength. Basically sensor strength will now work as a proper resistance with ECCM acting as a hardener. The final value of the Jammer will be depandant on this and is for CCP's balancing team to figure out.


However lets do the above scenario with a few modifications again but this time with resistances and "other" countermeasures.


Locking slots = 7
Sensorstrength = 20
ECCM = 15%
Auto Targeting unit = +2 locking slots
Close range ECM script = 4.5 (Range like todays multispec I imagine)

This gives us final values for the ECM 4.5 * (1 - 0.32) = 3.06

Beginning of fight, target uses up 4 slots but it now has a lot more spare thus reducing the ECM hit chance

X X X X O O O O O

After first ECM

X - X X - O O - O

Well crap, it did almost nothing. Need another jammer on it. With stacking penalty and resistances 3.06 x 0,83 = 2.53. Oh shoot, the diceroll sold us short this time. 2 slots jammed.


- - - X - O O - O


Well at least we got lucky with the slots, he stopped shooting one of our buddies but continued to rep his friend and he can continue to lock.



Ok, so what have we here

On the target side
Being able to always "fight back" Check. (if you fit for it)
Skills affecting jamming chance check


On the jammers side
ECM will always work in optimal but the effect will be random.
RR gangs will still have lots of problems due to ECM cycling and targeting different slots each cycle.

[Daneel Trevize]

Can anyone talk about any viable RR gang that isn't BSs (or Drakes assuming no resist nerf)? The RR modules need their range fixing to scale decently with size like any other module class does.
ATM possibly also T3s can RR while PVP, and that's only in w-space due to RR range.

Basically are/would RR gangs really be an issue without at least improving RR anyway?

[Xiang Jiao]

Yes, let's make a half a dozen more ships in Eve useless. Best idea I've ever read!

Yeah ECM on the field probably can make half a dozen ships useless... oh sorry you meant if ECM had a better counter, my bad.

I'm going to be generous and give you 3/10.

[Ophichius]

Can anyone talk about any viable RR gang that isn't BSs (or Drakes assuming no resist nerf)? The RR modules need their range fixing to scale decently with size like any other module class does.
ATM possibly also T3s can RR while PVP, and that's only in w-space due to RR range.

Basically are/would RR gangs really be an issue without at least improving RR anyway?

The second CCP buffed logi cruisers spider-tanked RR fleets became obsolete.

-O

[orcane]

Another thread full of ECM and Drake whines. Surprise.

[AmaNutin]

Another thread full of ECM and Drake whines. Surprise.

I take it as an opportunity for +1