[DEVPOST] Ship balancing - round 2

[Marlona Sky]

Play some EVE homey, it's actually a pretty balanced game right now.

This guy for real??

[Celedris]

As a long time off-and-on player the game looks more balanced overall to me than at any time in memory, at least in terms of smaller-scale stuff (<30 man). I see all kinds of viable stuff flying in space. Old-style nano skirmish gangs, tengu gangs, AF fleets, AHAC/T3s with guardians, canes, mixed tier-3 BCs, alpha fleets, black ops droppers.

There is a lot more variety than there was three or four years back.

[ry ry]

from what i hear, even the traditional the nullsec fuckery is more varied than it was Back In The Day when everybody was flying RR sniper BS and knocking the node over when we tried to bundle 200 guys through a gate or whatever the fuck we did back then.

some dudes are born bitter, others have bitterness thrust upon them. and some just really really want to be bitter to fit in.

whatever, balanced or not eve gameplay seems in pretty good shape tbhhhhh.

[ry ry]

now go back to your FW, leave ship&fleet designs to the mathematically capable and keep relying on the fits others have come up with, kthxbai

i fit the mathematically superior small blasters to every ship.

[Rexthor Hammerfists]

Imo the game is in a better state than it has ever been since 04 with the amount of fleet compositions, lag and the direction ccp is going. Of course there is always stuff that can be improved, even major things, but things are looking way up. For those that can play anyways

[Amantus]

When tier3 BCs are rightfully nano-nerfed, Drakes and Canes will stand back out again.
...implying they're still not hugely over-represented in gameplay.

I've seen far fewer Drakes in the past 3 months*. And it's becoming increasingly fewer as more entities transition to Tier 3 based fleet comps. They are disproportionately represented on my killboard, since I've mostly been fighting the CFC and the CFC are one of the few remaining hold outs.

*Roughly the time it takes a large alliance to decide something is cool and skill into it.

I suppose you'd actually need to log into EVE to see this though, so it's understandable how you missed it.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Apparently can't look at the previous months any more, but iirc for a few months in a row Drake has had two times the kill of #2, which unsurprisingly is the cane. Right now it has 4 times the kill amount of #3, which is ridiculous.

Also what is with the "tier 3s nerfed Drakes" bullshit. They "nerfed" all BC+ sized ships by the same amount. A Drake will still survive being shot by a Tornado/Talos for twice as long as a cane or any other BC really.

Looking at your KB actually tells me that you only roam with 20+ man blobs, where Drakes simply aren't a problem any more. They only are so mobile and do so much DPS. 5 Drakes + support shooting your own SMALL logiless gang over 80km in turn though...

there are no gallente ships on that list welp

[Smuggo]

When tier3 BCs are rightfully nano-nerfed, Drakes and Canes will stand back out again.
...implying they're still not hugely over-represented in gameplay.

I've seen far fewer Drakes in the past 3 months*. And it's becoming increasingly fewer as more entities transition to Tier 3 based fleet comps. They are disproportionately represented on my killboard, since I've mostly been fighting the CFC and the CFC are one of the few remaining hold outs.

*Roughly the time it takes a large alliance to decide something is cool and skill into it.

I suppose you'd actually need to log into EVE to see this though, so it's understandable how you missed it.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Apparently can't look at the previous months any more, but iirc for a few months in a row Drake has had two times the kill of #2, which unsurprisingly is the cane. Right now it has 4 times the kill amount of #3, which is ridiculous.

Also what is with the "tier 3s nerfed Drakes" bullshit. They "nerfed" all BC+ sized ships by the same amount. A Drake will still survive being shot by a Tornado/Talos for twice as long as a cane or any other BC really.

Looking at your KB actually tells me that you only roam with 20+ man blobs, where Drakes simply aren't a problem any more. They only are so mobile and do so much DPS. 5 Drakes + support shooting your own SMALL logiless gang over 80km in turn though...

there are no gallente ships on that list welp

Kinda surprised the Naga is on there but Talos isn't. Talos is a fucking ownmobile.

[Duckslayer]

naga is more suited for fleets than talos probably

[Pattern]

When tier3 BCs are rightfully nano-nerfed, Drakes and Canes will stand back out again.
...implying they're still not hugely over-represented in gameplay.

I've seen far fewer Drakes in the past 3 months*. And it's becoming increasingly fewer as more entities transition to Tier 3 based fleet comps. They are disproportionately represented on my killboard, since I've mostly been fighting the CFC and the CFC are one of the few remaining hold outs.

*Roughly the time it takes a large alliance to decide something is cool and skill into it.

I suppose you'd actually need to log into EVE to see this though, so it's understandable how you missed it.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Apparently can't look at the previous months any more, but iirc for a few months in a row Drake has had two times the kill of #2, which unsurprisingly is the cane. Right now it has 4 times the kill amount of #3, which is ridiculous.

Also what is with the "tier 3s nerfed Drakes" bullshit. They "nerfed" all BC+ sized ships by the same amount. A Drake will still survive being shot by a Tornado/Talos for twice as long as a cane or any other BC really.

Looking at your KB actually tells me that you only roam with 20+ man blobs, where Drakes simply aren't a problem any more. They only are so mobile and do so much DPS. 5 Drakes + support shooting your own SMALL logiless gang over 80km in turn though...

there are no gallente ships on that list welp

Gallente's fine. Everyone else is doing it wrong. /prom

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Pattern]

Also, is there no a great war going on? /Considering RvB is top

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[RoemySchneider]

now go back to your FW, leave ship&fleet designs to the mathematically capable and keep relying on the fits others have come up with, kthxbai

i fit the mathematically superior small blasters to every ship.

ah so you, too, have embraced the shortcomings of the tracking concept?
ridiculous isn't it

[Alistair]

The only issue I have with EVE right now is that Interceptors seem to have been made unneeded and unwanted in many nullsec fleets. Gallente and Matari Recons (and often a Loki) and Dessie Indterdictors seem to have all but made Interceptors unneeded/unwanted.

Obviously biased, as I was a dedicated fleet Inty pilot.....and (LolRP) a CVA Amarr-Only guy. Inties pop too easy, and have far too mcuh competition for Frigate-Tackle now, as much as I hate it, they really are not that needed vs. other options (unless really spacedollars poor).

[Smuggo]

I dunno, they're not that easy to pop so long as you fit and fly them well (most interceptors don't though and just burn directly at you so obviously they gonna die.

But an interceptor isn't meant to be hard tackle anyway. It's meant for the initial grab but needs to quickly have a heavier tackle ship like a vaga, rapier, arazu take over. Either that or to provide moving warps for the rest of the fleet and scouting roles. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with them since the Dram got nerfed.

[Pattern]

I think the whole "most people don't fly interceptors properly" thing is overblown. Beyond the basic nub, most keep decent transversal and avoid getted nuked on the intercept. Beyond that however, there shitty to fly. What do you do in a fight after the first tackle? Scout the next system in all likelihood, and then again coverts are just so much better for that as they provide better synergy for those who multibox.

Hang around in a standard fight verses any gang of +3 in a ceptor and you'll quickly get BBQ'ed, that's the problem. They used to be a ship pilots specialised there main in, now there disposable alt ships, thanks mostly to the nano nerf, medium autocannons and pulses.

[Rodj Blake]

I don't recall anyone seriously asking for noob ships to be boosted, but if they really have to do it then give them an ability to mess up titans.

Maybe a special weapon that targets an exhaust vent.

[Alistair]

I think the whole "most people don't fly interceptors properly" thing is overblown. Beyond the basic nub, most keep decent transversal and avoid getted nuked on the intercept. Beyond that however, there shitty to fly. What do you do in a fight after the first tackle? Scout the next system in all likelihood, and then again coverts are just so much better for that as they provide better synergy for those who multibox.

Hang around in a standard fight verses any gang of +3 in a ceptor and you'll quickly get BBQ'ed, that's the problem. They used to be a ship pilots specialised there main in, now there disposable alt ships, thanks mostly to the nano nerf, medium autocannons and pulses.

Exactly.

I've been flying Maledictions for 6 years now. Have more than half my kills in them. Over 1,000 kills (lolworthy I'm sure to some alliances, but pretty tops in CVA). I'm a veteran scout, inty-tackler and Maled pilot.

And I agree with my good friend Tyrus, when he says "Inties are outdated" in the role Ithey've always filled. Not because I suck or am zee Noobz. But because they are so weak, counterable and easy to kill by so many different things of all sizes, from the buffed AF's, to Faction Frigs, to Dessies/Dictors, to Battlecruisers and all manner of HAC's/Recon's/Cruisers.

Frankly, as fragile as they are, one may as well fit two long-points, all speed mods, and rig um up with lock-time rigs and just tackle at 30km without guns and hope for the best some days.

It's telling when even Inty-friendly veteran FC's who oknow what you're good at say "Yeah, we don't need those, don't you have a Lachesis or a Heretic?"

[OrangeAfroMan]

All of our fleets have at least one Inty - they are extremely useful when you're a small gang (15 or less) fighting a large group.

[illectro]

I don't recall anyone seriously asking for noob ships to be boosted, but if they really have to do it then give them an ability to mess up titans.

Maybe a special weapon that targets an exhaust vent.

I've been asking them to at least be balanced, the impairor gets a bonus that is essentially useless (can't fit enough lasers to drain the cap), and the ibis need missile hardpoints on principle.

[Sponk]

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...06#post1437506

While they definitely look sexy; there are no extra tech 3 ships planned for now. Reasons for that are quite simple.


First, you need a role for them that can fit in our balancing composition while not making existing vessels obsolete. That is a big problem we face with current Tech 3 cruisers, best example being the Tengu / Tech 3 command subsystems being better than tech 2 counterparts, while the others tech 3 cruisers / subsystems are quite subpar. Before we introduce new tech 3 ships, we really want to define a purpose for them that is unique and revamp existing ships to match. Ideally, each of their configuration should be useful, but it is not the case in practice when only a few have practical applications.

Second, frigates are not really the best hull to base a tech 3 ship hull from. That's because tech 3 ships are, by nature, expensive to acquire, which conflicts with the frailty of a frigate as a whole. Frigates are supposed to be expendable and relatively straightforward to set up, but this directly clashes with the complex nature of selecting and getting subsystems. Also, frigates have a lot of variations already - navy, pirate, tech 2, you name it, we have it. Thus, the chance that a tech 3 frigate would bring something new to the table without creating the problem explained in the first paragraph remains very low, and we would setting ourselves up for the same problems we face with tech 3 cruisers at the moment.


Based on all of this, here is the ship priority plan for the time being:

* Fix old hulls that are underpowered
* If and when we need new shinies, create new tech 1 roles (tier 3 BCs) or, if needed, missing tech 2 variations
* If we ever need new tech 3 hulls in the future, my vote would be to larger hulls, like battleships for the reasons explained above. Tech 3 battlecruisers are not a choice I would vouch for however, as they would conflict with tech 3 cruisers (same weapon system size) and without to say this ship class already is extremely popular, quite at the expense of the other hull sizes, so no need to aggravate the problem further.



Hope that clears things a bit.

I also saw a bit where he said they will be rebalancing the rookie ships to give less-focused 'bit of everything' bonuses to allow noobs to taste the whole range of experiences a race has to offer (launchers on caldari ships presumably)

edit: here it is, probably posted already

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...16#post1421616

[Calderus]

I think the whole "most people don't fly interceptors properly" thing is overblown...Hang around in a standard fight verses any gang of +3 in a ceptor and you'll quickly get BBQ'ed, that's the problem...They used to be a ship pilots specialised there main in, now there disposable alt ships, thanks mostly to the nano nerf, medium autocannons and pulses.

That's a whole lot of wrong packed into one post. You basically said 'I can't fly my favorite ship the way I used too. Waah.' Note, they didn't really nerf ceptors all that hard, just a little on the speed; rather they actually buffed nearly every other sub-cruiser ship - so cry me a river, fly something else. Or fly better. As Orange also said above, we use 1-2 ceptors in every gang (we do small gang <20, not big fleets), and they are still incredibly useful and effective. The amount of harassment and nanofaggotry that they enable - when flown by capable pilots - is hilarious.

Yeah, they're not particularly useful in big fleets - tbh, they never were though ('I was there' notwithstanding, lol). And yeah, they've had their survivability slightly reduced - mostly because of buffs to other things which needed to be buffed (Faction frigs, AFs, Dessies, and now T1 frigs). They're still extremely effective at their core use though - scouting and initial tackle. They're cheap, fast as balls, and work well IF, like all things in Eve, they're fitted and flown correctly. Overheating, going 6k/s and pointing out to 35-40 (which with the overview being slow to update is more like 50) will fuckup any sniper or nano ship's day. Orbiting at 30km outside of heavy neut range, going balls out fast will still, barely out-run warriors (if you're doing it right) and piss off any straggling BS or BC. They're right on the money imho. They can be countered, appropriately, but they still work quite well.