I'd like to retract my earlier defense of indeterminacy. He sounds like a spurging asshole keen on rationalizing an extreme position.
It's now a conspiracy by the school and developers and also there will be traffic. Jesus christ.
Originally Posted by Loire
As much as you smug right-on do-gooder cunts (who will change your tune as soon as you have kids) hate to admit it, sink schools are a real, tangible and measurable problem. Problems like drug addiction, violent bullying and petty crime in schools are directly related to the social strata the kids there come from.
Of course private schools have drugs and crime too sometimes. Of course most "poor" people aren't criminals or addicts or bullies. But statistically your kid is a LOT more likely to get screwed over in a school full of kids with unemployed single parents in social housing than one full of middle class families.
Anyone who denies this is just dumb.
Lallante in "Dirty poor people shouldn't have access to a decent school' non-shocker.
So your options are a) try to spread the 'at risk kids' around so they don't create a sink school / ghetto of low aspiration B) isolate the poor people in massive projects with their own schools so that people don't moan c) kill poor people
Assuming that this school is currently 'good', which option do you think the local council is going for?
Also, note that one can take action for your own benefit or that of your kids whilst also realising that fundamentally you're being selfish. I wouldn't want a nuclear waste dump to open anywhere near me, but I also accept that it has to go somewhere and there's no intrinsic reason why someone else should get fucked instead of me, all other things being equal.
Last edited by definatelynotKKassandra; May 25 2012 at 04:55:37 PM.
Edit: just to be clear I support the government building council housing (or whatever its called in the US) wherever it likes (preferably not in concentrated ghettos), I'm not attacking that, but I am defending the right of anyone who wants the best for their kids to pick the best school for the job (which if you can afford it will likely be a private school unless you are incredibly lucky).
Last edited by Lallante; May 25 2012 at 05:03:44 PM.
Yeah, terrible that they are putting poor people into an area next to a school.
I understand why people are apprehensive about the poor, but the reality is the majority of poor people are just trying to get by and bring themselves up into the middle classes. 90% of them are there because they have fallen on hard times (especially since 2008-2009), lack education or simply don't know any better. Most of them aren't going to mug you for $10 so they can get their next fix.
The fuckers you REALLY need to watch out for are the "respectable" people in nice suits. They'll sell you shit they know you can't afford, then take your home, cars, possessions and anything they can get there hands on, and even if you don't fall for their "have this pile of free money" bullshit they still manage to fuck you up by destroying/taking away your pensions, benefits or your job, and all of a sudden you're living in section 8 housing whilst and no-one gives a fuck because "you're poor"
Poor people? Don't worry about them, it's the guys in the snazzy suits that will really fuck you up. Stop being a narrow minded NIMBY. OMG poor people, in MY neighbourghood?!?!?!
Which is what I said as well. The kids have to go somewhere, I don't want it to be the same school as my kids. I can acknowledge this and put my kids in private school or whatever. What I can't do is claim that the fact the poor kids also get to go to school outside the ghetto is some kind of outrageous wrong.
You are right that I'm not required to make some futile gesture, but I ought not to moan when people call me out on being self interested in my actions.
I'm not being very clear, I know.
If you feel that the area you live in is becoming undesirable there's no law against just moving to another area, anyone living in the first world even "the poor" will have enough income to manage that if they save for a bit.
Alternatively become a heroin dealer and capitalise on the situation, what's the point of being an american if you can't make money off other people's suffering?
Lallante might be a troll (and a professional one at that) and he might be rather despicable at times (dont deny it Lall, you're a bloody lawyer, or work for one, forgot what one it was), but he did not claim that "Dirty poor people shouldn't have access to a decent school" or anything like that, he merely pointed out the existence of the problem.
around here Kassandra we try to run with Option A, and it's works up until the "ghetto" becomes so expansive that it's not reasonable on the kids in terms of transportation time, the solution typically employed when that happen is rehousing to different areas and tearing down some of the apartment blocks. the problem is still here, but it limits the damage to a fair degree.
of course, this being a tiny country you're always a reasonable distance from a mid-large sized city (relatively speaking here) so methods like that can and do work, will it work in the UK with the entire "north" quickly developing into one massive ghetto and anybody half sane moving to London as quickly as possible ? i don't know.
Originally Posted by Loire
My $0.02 on this whole shit is this, there is a huge difference between people who are poor and try to lift themselves up out of it and people who are poor and are happy to stay that way as long as they can game the system and collect a check every month & this attitude comes from your family and your upbringing. I have seen both sides of it. I went to a catholic high school and just before my sophmore year started, an inner city catholic school in the same diocese closed down & my school brought in the vast majority of their students. Most all of them came from poor families and were only capable of attending because the school granted them tuition waivers & sports scholarships for the ones who played em.
During the next 3 years it became plainly obvious what type of people each of them were. You could see who simply did not give a fuck about their education or improving their quality of life, they had no intention of succeeding unless it involved the pipe dream of playing sports professionally and considered everything else beneath them. One example that sticks out in my mind was a kid named K'Ron, who flat out refused to do any homework, any class work or even take a test. When my chemistry teacher asked him why he was refusing to take this quiz he said flat out "I'm here to play ball not deal with your science bullshit" Needless to say he was too stupid to realize that his scholarship depended on him maintaining a certain GPA & he was baffled as to why he was denied a scholarship the next year when he failed every class for the entire school year. Last I heard he was working at a warehouse packing boxes, and its a damn shame because he was an incredible basketball player, had he just sucked it up and done the course work he coudlve gone to college on a sports scholarship & I'm sure he woudlve even made it into the NBA. But because he was so self-entitled and felt that the world should bend to him he denied himself the chance.
And then there were the kids who you knew had a family that instilled the right ideas in them, That you have to work to succeed and that the only way to improve the quality of your life is to strive to better yourself. These were the kids who used their scholarships like they were ment to be used, to get the quality education that the inner-city public schools could not provide and that their parents could not afford to give them. They studied hard, they asked questions because they wanted answers, they put sports second to their education. Their parents did good in teaching them that the only way out of the innercity wasnt sports, but by getting an education, and getting a good job & that living on welfare was not acceptable. These are the kids that went on to become chemical engineers, lawyers, doctors, even a nuclear engineer & everything in between. They realized the opportunity they were handed and siezed it for everything it was worth. Because thats how they were brought up.
And thats not to say it was any different for us white kids from middle & upper class families. There were plenty of self entiteld rich kids who did fuck all, because they knew they didnt have to actually work a day in their life because their parents provided everything for them except the drive to succeed for themselves. And then there were plenty of rich kids whos parents instilled that drive, & wouldn't accept anything less then 100% effort from them, because they we're not going to give them everything, they wanted them to have to work for it themselves and know that true success comes from working for it.
So TL;DR: In my experience its a person up bringing & the values instilled by their family during it that determines if they go on to work hard and succeed or become a waste of space. Socio-economic status has nothing to do with a person character.
poor people smell
do you want your children mixing with smelly people?
i bet you hate freedom too