CCP Decision on B Teams

[DaDutchDude]

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...76#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

I think you misunderstand me.

The game is not set up to be fair. Trying to force a 'fair' tournament upon it is artificial, and really doesn't fit EVE or its culture. Players will always try to get around any 'rules' put up in the spirit of 'gamesmanship' and any attempt to set some rules and enforce them will result in arbitrary decisions. The simple fact is: nobody can either prove or disprove if you are trying to get around the rules, or at least the intention of them. You can say you're not, but it is completely legitimate in the culture of EVE to lie, cheat and steal your way to a tourney win even when CCP is trying to stop people from doing that.

So in the end, decisions become arbitrary and only serve to cast doubt and negativity on the whole event, without ever guaranteeing the tournament actually will be fair.

[Intigo]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...76#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

do you really think CCP even considered it that far? seems unlikely

[rojomojo915]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...76#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

do you really think CCP even considered it that far? seems unlikely

I would really like to think they did and they are not doing this simple because they are mad about last year. Even still, one of the teams should be allowed.

[Varcaus]

Trolololol we trolled CCP wait what no at for us? -_- total shocker

[StevieTopSiders]

So what we're trying to avoid is a thrown match like last time. We want Outbreak. to be interested in beating Hydra at all costs, and vice versa.

If this were actually the case, you would definitely not be sharing the top-secret fits (that you are obviously crafting to destroy the other team in the finals) with each other in your single corp hangar. You guys aren't keeping secrets from one another, and if you each wanted to win independently of the other (meaning no debacle like last year), you would have secrets.

However, I am for allowing you guys to compete as Purple-like entity. vOv

[Duncan]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...76#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. If we were testing in regular space we would not join the same corp but testing in wormhole space requires this. I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

This is not even the issue though. The issue is that we asked for clarification and outlined our full intentions before we did ANYTHING and received no response until now.

[Raivi]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...76#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

do you really think CCP even considered it that far? seems unlikely

Considering that Sreegs specifically cited the fact that you were in the same cop in the same wormhole as the reason for the ban, yeah I think it entered their mind.

[Intigo]

Trolololol we trolled CCP wait what no at for us? -_- total shocker

Are you serious? When did we ever try to "troll" CCP?

The final last year was a mistake and was not meant to end the way it did and everything this year was done in good faith while trying to communicate with CCP.

How can you post like that and hit reply without thinking "wow that's pretty dumb"

[Zavior]

If they asked(several times, mind you) what they were doing and received 'ok' from a senior ccp employee, this punishment seems to be done just to screw up hydra and outbreak.

[rojomojo915]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...76#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. If we were testing in regular space we would not join the same corp but testing in wormhole space requires this. I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

This is not even the issue though. The issue is that we asked for clarification and outlined our full intentions before we did ANYTHING and received no response until now.

You couldn't seriously think that after last year's finals fiasco and seeing the A/B teams rules that putting everyone in the same corp was a good idea? Yes you asked for clarification, but no where in the mails that Garmon posted did it mention both Hydra and Outbreak being in the same corp, and even if it did, you shouldnt have done it until after you got a response, just to keep yourself from the mess that you are in now.

You are trying to blame CCP for this whole mess, and yes, some of it should be on them for taking forever to respond, but you need to accept accountability in this too.

[Raivi]

Hydra guys, after the last tournament both Shadoo and I went to bat for you guys in the aftermath of the finals. Kil2 can comfirm that we defended and supported you guys for the fact that you didn't break any rules and we took a lot of flak for it.

I honestly can't see how you thought joining the same corp while being "seperate teams" would be allowed though. I really can't.

I was expecting CCP to just ban one of the teams, but I didn't think there was any chance at all of CCP letting you both play while being in one corp on sisi.

[xanral]

It would be nice if in cases like this CCP was more willing to communicate with the alliances in question. When some GM/Dev saw them in the same corp on the test server instead of going "aha!" perhaps they could have opened up a conversation to ask what the hell they thought they were doing. Then the CCP rep would have learned about the messages and petitions and could have stated a clear ruling or at least said "don't do that until we get back to you". A policy of talk first enforce mandates later would probably save them from a bunch of drama at the end of the day.

*Edit - I say this having being a GM of a small MMO before, I always spoke to the parties involved first and tried to reach a mutually satisfying conclusion for everyone involved. Only when people decided to be uncompromising assholes while also being in the wrong on the rules did I start handing down mandates.

[Traxio Nacho]

If they asked(several times, mind you) what they were doing and received 'ok' from a senior ccp employee, this punishment seems to be done just to screw up hydra and outbreak.

A GM being inconsistent, in Eve you say? I don't believe it.

[Ituralde]

I don't want to be in an alliance tournament that doesn't have the top teams in it.

I want to face the best of the best and see how good our alliance can do against them.

This isn't supposed to be about second bests. Anyone with a clue knows that Outbreak and Hydra always have been separate and distinct entities with unique histories and involvement in EVE.

This is bullshit.

[LoKiPP]

To be honest, this shows that the Alliance Tournament as a CCP run event is bankrupt. You create a game that is basically tailor-made for plotting, scheming and cheating, and then you try to 'force' something to be 'fair'. As much as I love AT as it was intended, I don't think that it fits with EVE as the game as it currently is. If you want an event like the alliance tournament, then give players the tools to organize it. More toys in the sand box, less CCP interference.

Even if what you say is true, if you read Garmons post you'll find that we asked CCP multiple times about the legality of things and received only on reply, from a Senior GM, that it was ok to practice together

https://forums.eveonline.com/default...76#post1356876 also explains why everyone is in one corp, just like everyone from the PL or DarkSide team is

The PL and Darkside teams are in one corp since we are each one team and therefore it doesn't matter if we have complete access to all of the setups in our wormhole.

If Hydra and 0utbreak are supposed to be seperate teams that just test together when numbers are low, you wouldn't want the lack of secrecy or independance that comes from being in one corp.

I agree with Tyrrax, that one corp thing is probably what put you over the edge.

do you really think CCP even considered it that far? seems unlikely

Yes 100%. Its obvious they really care about the tournament.

[LoKiPP]

I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

No matter how many petitions you send stating your intentions, joining a single corp made them start questioning. Running two separate corps for two separate tourny teams would of been easy for you guys to do and truly shown you guys were split for this tournament. But last years finals and joining the single corp obviously made CCP sit down and rethink how they were going to handle this and this is their decision.

[rojomojo915]

And CCP just locked the tread on the EVE forums.

Edit: Just found my favorite post in that thread.

one might say:

EVE ATX is Easy?

[Duncan]

I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

No matter how many petitions you send stating your intentions, joining a single corp made them start questioning. Running two separate corps for two separate tourny teams would of been easy for you guys to do and truly shown you guys were split for this tournament. But last years finals and joining the single corp obviously made CCP sit down and rethink how they were going to handle this and this is their decision.

The logistics of practicing in a WH means that it makes the most sense for everyone to be in a single corp. Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS and two corps in the same wormhole is not going to prevent this somehow.

[rojomojo915]

I cannot believe you seriously believe that being in the same corp on the test server truly makes any difference as to how separate the teams are when it comes to testing in a wormhole.

No matter how many petitions you send stating your intentions, joining a single corp made them start questioning. Running two separate corps for two separate tourny teams would of been easy for you guys to do and truly shown you guys were split for this tournament. But last years finals and joining the single corp obviously made CCP sit down and rethink how they were going to handle this and this is their decision.

The logistics of practicing in a WH means that it makes the most sense for everyone to be in a single corp. Any two teams that test against each other regularly will know the exact setups of the other team anyway. Setting up two POS and two corps in the same wormhole is not going to prevent this somehow.

Doesn't matter what it actually prevents or doesn't prevent, what matters is what it looks like. And it looked like, to CCP, you guys were trying to game the system again.

[Varcaus]

Trolololol we trolled CCP wait what no at for us? -_- total shocker

Are you serious? When did we ever try to "troll" CCP?

The final last year was a mistake and was not meant to end the way it did and everything this year was done in good faith while trying to communicate with CCP.

How can you post like that and hit reply without thinking "wow that's pretty dumb"

Go dig up the new rule announce ment were there are plenty of post say "we trolled CCP" and "lol they mad".