Diablo III is now waiting for 1,000,000 MF swap tears

[Itiken]

So, game is dead/dying, c/c?

I'm definitely not renewing by subscription.

[Blutreiter]

Life on Hit is still superior in 1vs1 situations (bossfights etc), whereas Lifesteal is more viable in AoE. The bigger, the better.

[Roam]

That's a whole lot of abject hostility aimed at a non-provocative post with the intent to be helpful and friendly to fellow FHC'ers. Well, I guess my tone came over unintentionally high and mighty, so let me first apologize for that. Wasn't my intention. I do admit I'm getting rather weary of the amount of impotent rage in this thread, but I shouldn't have let that seep into my posting, as that just makes it worse. My intentions were just to be friendly.

With that as preface, let's respond by poster individually:

Nicho: If you read my post again, you'll see I do refute and list evidence both statistically and mathematically as to why Lifesteal can be better. The integral thing here is that, as I explained before, your listed DPS in the inventory screen is nothing but an arbitrary figure adding together a number of factors that influence weapon dps, but not accounting for skills. Simply said: your listed dps is the damage you'd do with a white hit from your weapon with no skill selected.

Therefore it's no indication of real, ingame dps. Taking a monk as example. In one second the average monk will do 1.5 Fists of Thunder:thunderclap hits (110% weapon dps plus electrify affix in an aoe radius that does 35% per mob hit, with lots of them spawning per hit. First two hits can hit multiple targets, third hit is aoe), 1 tick of Sweeping Wind per second on every individual mob (45% weapon dps) and 1-6 cyclones spawned (each doing 20% additional weapon dps in aoe, lasting three seconds). This is assuming the Monk runs a cookiecutter tank build with no other possible dps abilities other than the two mentioned above.

Just from looking at these two above, it's clear that even against a single mob you're doing in excess of 100% of your weapon dps every second. Against a group (which will be 90% of the time, as this is Diablo after all) this will scale exponentially. Therefore, the argument of "You'd need 100k+ weapon dps to make lifesteal viable" makes no sense, because the entire premise of aforementioned argument is that weapon dps is the actual damage you're doing per second. Which as I've shown above is simply not the case.

Someone else calculated that in a moderate group (as monk, again) you can do in excess of 1000% of your listed weapon dps per second, for which you'll get 100% of the lifesteal (100% in this case referring to the fact that all damage you do will steal life for you without any additional modifiers, apart from the base 20% Inferno penalty).

Now let's compare this to LoH, with the same Monk, same build. Fists of thunder is counted as a single target ability for LoH coefficients on the first TWO hits even though it can hit multiple targets, so you get 75% of your LoH on the first two hits even for multiple mobs. 2 mobs means you get 150% etc etc. I won't patronize you by spelling it out, you get it. Now, realistically the AoE effect isn't large enough (around 2 yard) to hit more than say 3-4 mobs at a time. The electrify effect from this attack does not proc LoH. To remind, average amount of hits is 1.5 per second. Sweeping Wind and the Cyclones don't generate any LoH, so we have to disregard them. This means that your source of LoH is a flat amount gained from 1.5 hits every second, and nothing else, and will not scale with your dps.

I hope the above explains more adequately what I meant with my post about lifesteal. I hope I've been more clear, and that it's to your satisfaction, feel free to ask if you want me to find out more specific stuff.

Pacefalm: Welp, I'm sorry to find I left a bad impression on you too, I always liked your posting. Well, I guess the above explanation is a response to your post too, as it tackles the whole argument of "Needing unrealistic amounts of listed weapon dps for lifesteal to become feasible", which I feel I responded to carefully enough. Again, sorry for my tone earlier. Be my e-buddy again? <3

Sand: I'm sad to see how hostile you get to me and others that disagree with you about stuff. I hope you're not this mad about differing opinions in RL, would make me sad face. Anyway, you had the most points so again: one by one.
-I'm basing the assumption that I'm more experienced as a Monk than you on the fact that I was doing Act 3/4 stuff in Inferno as a Monk while you were still playing your DH. Since then, I've beat the entire game pre 1.03 on Inferno, did a lot of research into many aspects of build and gear for other Monks and can safely say I know my way around the class.
-I guess you already knew about how important crit was and we disagree that lifesteal is going to increase in demand. I'm sorry if my suggestion to no one in specific that Crit was a good stat to try and sell caused you undue grief and offense, it was meant as a friendly tip to others who perhaps didn't know that it was a good stat yet, and maybe help some of my fellow FHC'ers who have either just got into inferno or are struggling in Act 1-2. It certainly wasn't the intention to cause you personal grief or patronize you. Besides, even if it was, it wasn't doing a very good job. I think this post is much more efficient in the whole "patronizing Sand" thing, don't you agree?
-Jbend obviously meant 100% of damage proccing lifesteal, as opposed to LoH which is affected by skill coefficients and isn't procced with certain abilities. I figure you knew this, but were just being a dick to the guy. Please don't, it makes people sad. :3

Hm. I think that sums everything up. Thanks for reading, lots of roamy <3! o/

[Malaes]

So, game is dead/dying, c/c?

I'm definitely not renewing by subscription.

But yes also very bored now Doesn't seem to have a crack that d2 had, maybe its the lack of leveling?

[Mavolio]

the important part is that most skills do not get 100% loh:#hits ratio; but you always get 100% of your lifesteal.

Bzzzt, wrong. Please try again.

Its p.obvious he meant that some abilities dont get the full 100% value from LoH. While Life Steal always gets its full amount (after the 80% reduction obv) no matter what ability you use. Which is why Life Steal is sooo much better on packs with more than 1 mob.

[omeg]

Finally done act 3. Fuck me, the tower... At least later levels were easier. Cydaea was tricky but not overly difficult. Azmodan was ezmodan.

[Synapse]

Played two characters up to Inferno Act 1 and haven't found a single legendary or exceptionally good rare item. Fuck that.

Thats ok, I found 2 before end of Hell, and they both sucked worse than blue gear I was throwing away.

Basically, you didnt miss anything.

[Popelmon]

So, game is dead/dying, c/c?

That's a clear d and you are fucking retarded for even asking.

[sahtila]

It does not matter if life steal is better again large groups, what is more important is which ability gives more healing against only 1-4 targets, that's number of targets in boss fights and champion/rare packs (except special case of Horde ability). How much lets say 20k dps charsheet monk does in reality against 3 targets? And that's good case if they all in range, what if mobs are ranged, then only sweeping wing tornadoes hit 2 other mobs?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Roam]

It does not matter if life steal is better again large groups, what is more important is which ability gives more healing against only 1-4 targets, that's number of targets in boss fights and champion/rare packs (except special case of Horde ability). How much lets say 20k dps charsheet monk does in reality against 3 targets? And that's good case if they all in range, what if mobs are ranged, then only sweeping wing tornadoes hit 2 other mobs?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

As I stated in my post, even against a single mob it becomes clear that your actual dps is much much higher than weapon dps. Even against single targets and bosses I'm noticing lifesteal more than life on hit, but I think realistically a combination of both is best. I'm using my weapons for lifesteal, with LoH on rings and amulet. Dropped about 900 or so loh from switching weapons to LS, and gained a massive survivability increase. Much more than any upgrade or gear change I've done in the past.

As for the other questions: both barb and monk have range closers, and cyclones do ranged damage. You're misconstruing my argument if you're interpreting me as saying: "LS is better against unrealistically and unpractical large hordes of monsters". That's not my argument, nor has it ever been.

My argument is that Lifesteal has a point (depending on build and gear) where it becomes much better and more reliable than LoH even against a single mob (though it clearly scales exponentially with mob numbers) but more importantly: that this point is much LOWER than people realize because most people (including in this thread sand and pacefalm) are using raw weapon dps for their calculations, which as I've explained in exhaustive detail is wrong.

But good points, thanks for pointing them out. Forgot to address them in my previous post.

[arian snow]

It does not matter if life steal is better again large groups, what is more important is which ability gives more healing against only 1-4 targets, that's number of targets in boss fights and champion/rare packs (except special case of Horde ability). How much lets say 20k dps charsheet monk does in reality against 3 targets? And that's good case if they all in range, what if mobs are ranged, then only sweeping wing tornadoes hit 2 other mobs?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

My argument is that Lifesteal has a point (depending on build and gear) where it becomes much better and more reliable than LoH even against a single mob (though it clearly scales exponentially with mob numbers) but more importantly: that this point is much LOWER than people realize because most people (including in this thread sand and pacefalm) are using raw weapon dps for their calculations, which as I've explained in exhaustive detail is wrong.

But good points, thanks for pointing them out. Forgot to address them in my previous post.

There is no exponential scaling, the scaling you are talking about is quite linear! All this is pointless theory crafting, if it works for you, then fine, leave it to people to go and try it off if they want. Personally I'm more of a boost resist and life on spirit use kinda monk.

[Pacefalm]

Pacefalm: Welp, I'm sorry to find I left a bad impression on you too, I always liked your posting. Well, I guess the above explanation is a response to your post too, as it tackles the whole argument of "Needing unrealistic amounts of listed weapon dps for lifesteal to become feasible", which I feel I responded to carefully enough. Again, sorry for my tone earlier. Be my e-buddy again? <3

I'm not gonna let something silly like this get between us 2 <3

[Roam]

It does not matter if life steal is better again large groups, what is more important is which ability gives more healing against only 1-4 targets, that's number of targets in boss fights and champion/rare packs (except special case of Horde ability). How much lets say 20k dps charsheet monk does in reality against 3 targets? And that's good case if they all in range, what if mobs are ranged, then only sweeping wing tornadoes hit 2 other mobs?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

My argument is that Lifesteal has a point (depending on build and gear) where it becomes much better and more reliable than LoH even against a single mob (though it clearly scales exponentially with mob numbers) but more importantly: that this point is much LOWER than people realize because most people (including in this thread sand and pacefalm) are using raw weapon dps for their calculations, which as I've explained in exhaustive detail is wrong.

But good points, thanks for pointing them out. Forgot to address them in my previous post.

There is no exponential scaling, the scaling you are talking about is quite linear! All this is pointless theory crafting, if it works for you, then fine, leave it to people to go and try it off if they want. Personally I'm more of a boost resist and life on spirit use kinda monk.

Ah, of course. You're quite right, bit of a snafu. I meant of course that it scales linearly with more mobs, since the amount of damage you can do to each mob at a time remains the same.

As for resist: one does not negate the other. I've got 1k resists when solo, and 1.5k when with my Barb buddy (which is pretty much always).

Life on spirit is nice, but has two flaws, in my opinion: A) you need spirit for it to do anything, which means you need to be hitting something and B) afaik the bonus can only be on helmets and weapons. Given that there are better stats to focus on with weapons, the amount of life on spirit you can get isn't high enough to really do much.

Pace: <3

[arian snow]

I appreciate that almost everyone here are alot more hardcore than me, and that I will probably never get anywhere near that amount of resists with decent DPS, as I have to make tradeoffs on my monk with the small amount of gold that I have. I am finding myself enjoying the monk more than my DH recently though. Also stubbonly clinging to 2H on my monk, and it's a pretty hard time even in act2.

In a totally different venue of discussion, do any of you guys think there will be consequences for all those that upset the gold balance with the massive AH/cancel cheat? I mean it wouldn't be too hard for Blizzard to track down the culprits, seeing that all the gold you pick up are registered differently from the gold you make on the AH.

[Roam]

I appreciate that almost everyone here are alot more hardcore than me, and that I will probably never get anywhere near that amount of resists with decent DPS, as I have to make tradeoffs on my monk with the small amount of gold that I have. I am finding myself enjoying the monk more than my DH recently though. Also stubbonly clinging to 2H on my monk, and it's a pretty hard time even in act2.

In a totally different venue of discussion, do any of you guys think there will be consequences for all those that upset the gold balance with the massive AH/cancel cheat? I mean it wouldn't be too hard for Blizzard to track down the culprits, seeing that all the gold you pick up are registered differently from the gold you make on the AH.

Hm? You mean the supposed gold dupe thing? That was busted as a hoax.

[arian snow]

Okay, I got a guy that claims he made 450million on it, but he is from Americas, so who knows...

[XenosisReaper]

So, game is dead/dying, c/c?

I'm definitely not renewing by subscription.

But yes also very bored now Doesn't seem to have a crack that d2 had, maybe its the lack of leveling?

My theory is that a) competition for your attention is a lot harsher than it was when d2 came out and b) ADHD/Cocaine.

[Sudden]

So, game is dead/dying, c/c?

I'm definitely not renewing by subscription.

But yes also very bored now Doesn't seem to have a crack that d2 had, maybe its the lack of leveling?

My theory is that a) competition for your attention is a lot harsher than it was when d2 came out and b) ADHD/Cocaine.

Lack of pvp which was a major incentive for grinding is my bet.

[sand]

Hm? You mean the supposed gold dupe thing? That was busted as a hoax.

As I've had friends who actually abused it and considering I duped two separate items with the failing AH the first couple weeks, it's not a hoax. Do you really think Blizzard would go out and admit they fucked up that badly, when the RMAH was around the corner? They had trouble admitting the whole "set your computer clock back to cancel auctions" bug, but it was so wide spread on reddit/youtube that they had to.

And about the LoH/lifesteal stuff, believe what ya want. I came across hostile and mostly because I'm tired of this staunch defending of Blizzard and their stupidity. I also don't appreciate being compared to tinfoil conspiracies when in fact, Bashiok confirmed I was right the next day.

On a completely unrelated note, anyone want to sell me diablo3 gold for isk?

[Pacefalm]

There are a couple of things that I think make the game lose its appeal quicker than diablo 2

1) ease and shortness of leveling to level cap (diablo 2 had no practical level cap unless you really went for it).
2) once you are at level cap, there is not a lot to do (no pvp) except grind.
3) huge availability of good gear on AH for little money.
4) all the above combined with: items you find are complete shit 99% of the time.

Result: quick lvl cap, nothing to do but grind for items, the items you find are shit, so you grind for gold, the AH quickly provides you with items, game ends. It is ultimately very unrewarding to grind for items since the item drops are crap and you don't even get exp or anything else.

The market is also pretty fucked. AH is flooded and items do not "leave" the economy. Nobody vendors good items, so after a while they just get injected back into the market. This means the problem will only get bigger the longer the game exists, while higher availability of good items and competition will drive prices down. The game is already at a point where grinding your own gear is barely worth it compared to AH. Even item grinding will lose its appeal and then what is left to do in the game?

Apology for :bitter:. Maybe I'm just disappointed/nostalgic since I played and enjoyed D2 so much, but I'm not the only person who feels this way. Diablo 3 could really have benefitted from a few months extra polishing and rethinking. Ironically Blizzard can't even improve drop chances because while it will make grinding better, the items on AH will also be better and it will be no more rewarding.