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Thread: I suck at job interviews/I hate my job and everyone sucks[MEGATHREAD?]

  1. #4101
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Possible interview today with a metals company. Will be referring to the list of questions I previously posted here (1 and 2), but am looking for some new ones.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  2. #4102
    Keckers's Avatar
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    What's the role?
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    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  3. #4103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    I'm the same grade as my boss but I get a number of allowances associated with my job role, working conditions and level of responsibility/legal accountability which bump it up significantly.

    I think my firm is slowly waking up to the fact that managers shouldn't always earn more than minions. All too often the only way to reward a good technical/engineering type has been to give them a team against their will, thus taking them away from the value they were providing in the first place.
    The civil service is slowly waking up to this too.

    Since I have been here there has been a realisation that unless they want to pay potentially 1k a day for a contractor they need to give permanent staff specialist pay over and above the managers and executives. The top band before you become a senior civil servant was previously reserved for "head of" management types and there was a massive amount of resistance towards changing it.

  4. #4104

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    Honestly the civil service gets discount rates on contractors as well, because its such stable, easy work.

  5. #4105
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    What's the role?
    2 positions at 2 companies: first is a help desk position at an IT firm, second is a quality technician at a metal recycler.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  6. #4106
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Back from first interview. I was a bit hesitant about the position that was described, but found it more appealing as the interview continued. Now the waiting game begins.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  7. #4107
    Tyrehl's Avatar
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    After weeks of preparation and 3 interviews (first two with my current and hopefully future colleagues, we apply as a team) im super hyped about the position. Next week we should get the contracts and unless they tried to fuck me up too much, it's gonna be a smooth sailing.

    Only issue is letting my manager know. Me and another one of my future colleagues are on the same team and it's gonna be a big hit for sure. What's even worse, he will be in vacation until the mid-end of June.
    And I have to write my resignation by the end of June, so I can start on the first of October :/

    Long story short, it feels a bit like an ass move. I know that's the way this game is played, but he is a nice guy and I wanted to ideally give him a bit more time.
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  8. #4108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    What's the role?
    2 positions at 2 companies: first is a help desk position at an IT firm, second is a quality technician at a metal recycler.
    FHCler don't let fellow FHCler take jobs in IT help desk ...

  9. #4109
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    I started writing about this on discord.

    Anyway, work: at my school two teachers are headteachers per class, my colleague is of the do everything immediately type, doesn't like to delegate work a lot and doesn't really trust me to do something after I screwed up a thing or two
    so she decided to break up our team, I now get to choose a new class to take over as a headteacher, I can pick between three seventh grade classes (my class is 8th grade), two with one headteacher around where I am number two again, the other without a headteacher

    Here's the remaining chat:

    [4:45 AM] ApproachingWalrus: does she outrank you or something? how can she break up your team?
    [4:45 AM] ApproachingWalrus: or is that not a bad thing for you
    [4:45 AM] Joe Appleby: nope
    [4:45 AM] Joe Appleby: to both
    [4:45 AM] Joe Appleby: equal rank (not that we really care much beyond principal - teacher difference)
    [4:45 AM] Joe Appleby: she asked me
    [4:45 AM] Joe Appleby: I agreed
    [4:46 AM] ApproachingWalrus: how big are your classes that you have two teachers?
    [4:46 AM] Joe Appleby: I had a conversation with our socialworker, who also mediates between colleagues if necessary
    [4:46 AM] Joe Appleby: 25 kids
    [4:46 AM] Joe Appleby: but 50% welfare, second highest number of reported crimes in the borough (at least two schools underreport)
    [4:47 AM] Joe Appleby: so I discussed the situation with a few friends/colleagues and the socialworker, who is more of a friend of mine
    [4:48 AM] Joe Appleby: the change in class means I switch buildings to where I am for half my lessons anyway
    [4:49 AM] Joe Appleby: and I switch teams (each grade level has a team of teachers that are their headteachers) and half of that new team are my friends that I spent a lot of free time with

    NINJAEDIT: I will ask to get the class that doesn't have a headteacher right now. I need to organize myself and not be able to rely on anyone else to do my work before I need to do it myself. I will get a second headteacher probably, a new teacher that is still in training. He isn't around full time, so I have to rely on myself. It should work out fine, we get new software to keep track of lessons and absences (finally going digital!) so that helps a lot.
    Last edited by Joe Appleby; June 3 2018 at 03:08:10 AM.
    nevar forget

  10. #4110
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    There are lots of jobs being created, but not enough people to fill them. That has been a familiar refrain as the economic recovery keeps going and unemployment keeps falling.

    The economy has now been adding jobs for nearly 8 years — its longest streak on record. The U.S. is considered at near full employment, and the biggest challenge in the job market is the lack of available workers — a record 6.7 million jobs remain unfilled. In many industries, including trucking, construction, and information technology, this labor shortage is becoming increasingly acute.

    For employers, however, a hot job market is costly. It increases pressure to raise wages, and even curb business growth if there are not enough people to do the work.

    An ADP/Moody's Analytics survey out Thursday showed private hiring rose by 177,000 last month, slightly below expectations. "Business' number one problem is finding qualified workers," says Moody's Chief Economist Mark Zandi. The problem, he says, will get worse if hiring continues at its current pace. "These labor shortages will only intensify across all industries and company sizes."
    Had an interview a month ago, and I asked if they had any concerns. They said no. Never heard back from them. Sent out numerous applications for positions in technical fields, including IT. No response.

    I have relevant experience and a decent resume, but no one seems to be interested in me. So something is wrong.

    edit: Articles like this are highly misleading, because the vast majority of job postings I see are for Senior/Lead/Manager positions, while almost nothing is open for people trying to break into the field.
    Last edited by Nordstern; July 6 2018 at 12:12:35 PM.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  11. #4111
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    After weeks of preparation and 3 interviews (first two with my current and hopefully future colleagues, we apply as a team) im super hyped about the position. Next week we should get the contracts and unless they tried to fuck me up too much, it's gonna be a smooth sailing.

    Only issue is letting my manager know. Me and another one of my future colleagues are on the same team and it's gonna be a big hit for sure. What's even worse, he will be in vacation until the mid-end of June.
    And I have to write my resignation by the end of June, so I can start on the first of October :/

    Long story short, it feels a bit like an ass move. I know that's the way this game is played, but he is a nice guy and I wanted to ideally give him a bit more time.
    pfft, everyone quits when the manager is on holiday. always seems to happen, i think it's something to do with managers normally having to schedule their time off in quieter periods for the business (and by extension shortly after harder shit/stressful periods). so they tend to be away the same time over stressed people finally have time to look elsewhere :P

    the best thing you should do if you like your manager is tell him asap. why haven't you already? it's the only thing that will make his life easier.

  12. #4112
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    I've been re-recruited by my current organisation (governmental style, 30-40k empl) for mapping its reference enterprise architecture. Yay!

    Problem: I've been doing project/team management for the last 10-15 years (I needed the change, badly) and I kind of forgot EA - well, not entirely, but not fresh either

    What do you think I should prioritise? I won't be alone but I don't know the team roles yet. I have 3 weeks.
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  13. #4113
    Movember 2012 I Legionnaire's Avatar
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    I hate when people that weren't involved in building the software at all come back after all is said and done and piss about it not doing what was "intended". Fuck you cunt, where were you the last three months with all of your uncommunicated requirements?

  14. #4114
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    There are lots of jobs being created, but not enough people to fill them. That has been a familiar refrain as the economic recovery keeps going and unemployment keeps falling.

    The economy has now been adding jobs for nearly 8 years — its longest streak on record. The U.S. is considered at near full employment, and the biggest challenge in the job market is the lack of available workers — a record 6.7 million jobs remain unfilled. In many industries, including trucking, construction, and information technology, this labor shortage is becoming increasingly acute.

    For employers, however, a hot job market is costly. It increases pressure to raise wages, and even curb business growth if there are not enough people to do the work.

    An ADP/Moody's Analytics survey out Thursday showed private hiring rose by 177,000 last month, slightly below expectations. "Business' number one problem is finding qualified workers," says Moody's Chief Economist Mark Zandi. The problem, he says, will get worse if hiring continues at its current pace. "These labor shortages will only intensify across all industries and company sizes."
    Had an interview a month ago, and I asked if they had any concerns. They said no. Never heard back from them. Sent out numerous applications for positions in technical fields, including IT. No response.

    I have relevant experience and a decent resume, but no one seems to be interested in me. So something is wrong.

    edit: Articles like this are highly misleading, because the vast majority of job postings I see are for Senior/Lead/Manager positions, while almost nothing is open for people trying to break into the field.
    You’re far too assertive for today’s market. The questions you had Steph pose, if you posed them would, at least in America, raise red flags for most interviewers if asked by anyone outside of an applicant for a super-niche position. They suggest you actually respect yourself, and won’t debate yourself for your employer’s benefit.

    “Labor shortage” is just capitalist speak for “We’re not willing to raise wages, and people are tired of our bullshit, so it’s time to throw millions out of work to remind labor who’s in charge and make them grateful for scraps again.” Note that recessions tend to happen right at the point where overall economic growth finally starts creating conditions that are advantageous for labor.

    Put another way, you’re not getting hired because companies don’t think they can afford you.

  15. #4115
    Yankunytjatjara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Legionnaire View Post
    I hate when people that weren't involved in building the software at all come back after all is said and done and piss about it not doing what was "intended". Fuck you cunt, where were you the last three months with all of your uncommunicated requirements?
    I'm off to a great start No but seriously it's more about transforming the enterprise than pissing off the architects - also because the original architects are probably all retired.

    The organisation has some 17-18 hundred IT systems, that's more than one per 20 employees. 90% of them in maintenance mode.
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  16. #4116
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    OK, so categorise the systems by line of business or whatever criteria the existing company is organised around.

    Then tag them with other metadata, like technology, what kind of API or integration it has (soap, rest, fucking database table)

    Then work out what they connect to and turn that into a DOT/Graphvis-compatible format so you can look at it.

    Then you can draw trust boundaries or whatever you feel like.

    Ensure this process is data-driven and you can recreate that graph at will, because you are a professional.

    That's the easy step. After that comes analysis, recommendations etc. I mean, what do they want the enterprise to transform *to*? Presumably they have something in mind.

    Assuming it's something straightforward and buzz worthy like "ugh, we want to replace all this old monolithic tech with micro services" then you can work out where you'd put the API gateway(s) and which things to replace. If it's something like "We want more AI" then you need to start looking at the business processes instead, so the outside of your graph definitely expands to include human teams etc.
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  17. #4117
    Yankunytjatjara's Avatar
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    Of course it's microservices, but... I've seen websites described as microservices around here. In devops presentations, no less. Oh and "fucking db table" integration nails it... Neat! Looks like you've suffered through this before? Thanks for taking the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sponk View Post
    OK, so categorise the systems by line of business or whatever criteria the existing company is organised around.

    Ensure this process is data-driven and you can recreate that graph at will
    Ah this drew my attention, are you combining some tools together? Stuff I know seems to only do the architecture design part, but probably I'm outdated. Ideally I'd ask people to tag their systems so, something that I can plug in the knowledge base, to read their tags from there... And get the architecture to update as a result. This would be incredibly useful. Do you suggest any particular tool for the graph to keep some EA standards? Aris and the like, I seem to remember to be rather top-down then the opposite, which seems a very good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sponk View Post
    That's the easy step. After that comes analysis, recommendations etc. I mean, what do they want the enterprise to transform *to*? Presumably they have something in mind.
    Eh, I wish, this is coming from rather low in the hierarchy and I have some doubts that any transformation can actually happen - until I see management buy-in with my eyes I won't believe in it (I've been assured that there's buy-in during the interview, at the usually fake do you have any questions time. Quite funny to feel that I was the one testing them).
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  18. #4118
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    There are lots of jobs being created, but not enough people to fill them. That has been a familiar refrain as the economic recovery keeps going and unemployment keeps falling.

    The economy has now been adding jobs for nearly 8 years — its longest streak on record. The U.S. is considered at near full employment, and the biggest challenge in the job market is the lack of available workers — a record 6.7 million jobs remain unfilled. In many industries, including trucking, construction, and information technology, this labor shortage is becoming increasingly acute.

    For employers, however, a hot job market is costly. It increases pressure to raise wages, and even curb business growth if there are not enough people to do the work.

    An ADP/Moody's Analytics survey out Thursday showed private hiring rose by 177,000 last month, slightly below expectations. "Business' number one problem is finding qualified workers," says Moody's Chief Economist Mark Zandi. The problem, he says, will get worse if hiring continues at its current pace. "These labor shortages will only intensify across all industries and company sizes."
    Had an interview a month ago, and I asked if they had any concerns. They said no. Never heard back from them. Sent out numerous applications for positions in technical fields, including IT. No response.

    I have relevant experience and a decent resume, but no one seems to be interested in me. So something is wrong.

    edit: Articles like this are highly misleading, because the vast majority of job postings I see are for Senior/Lead/Manager positions, while almost nothing is open for people trying to break into the field.
    You’re far too assertive for today’s market. The questions you had Steph pose, if you posed them would, at least in America, raise red flags for most interviewers if asked by anyone outside of an applicant for a super-niche position. They suggest you actually respect yourself, and won’t debate yourself for your employer’s benefit.

    “Labor shortage” is just capitalist speak for “We’re not willing to raise wages, and people are tired of our bullshit, so it’s time to throw millions out of work to remind labor who’s in charge and make them grateful for scraps again.” Note that recessions tend to happen right at the point where overall economic growth finally starts creating conditions that are advantageous for labor.

    Put another way, you’re not getting hired because companies don’t think they can afford you.
    And in what market would my assertiveness be considered acceptable?
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  19. #4119
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Like I said, in a situation where you're applying for a specialized position. Help desk and QA positions probably don't meet those requirements. If the position were management, something requiring an advanced degree, a research position, or something like that, folks are going to be a lot more receptive when you start asking things like "How many direct reports does my supervisor have" or "What tools will I have to make sure I'm meeting performance goals." For an essentially disposable employee, these questions suggest that the employee actually tries to think for themselves, and that's not a desirable trait in a grunt. Or rather, it is a desirable trait, it's just that modern HR theory prefers people who are dronelike.

    I mean don't get me wrong, your questions are spot on and assertiveness is good, in objective terms, but I really think employers these days don't want assertive employees in most jobs.

    But for example, let me put on my asshole job-interviewer hat. Note that these critiques are a cynical take on things based on my experience with folks who hire people regularly; they're not my own views (I think all these are solid questions.)

    1. Are you of the opinion that all new hires should be value-added on day one? (If they say yes, ask how their compensation package reflects that belief.)

    Of course you're expected to be value-add on day one. And why do you think you deserve compensation for this? On-the-job training is sooooo 20th century. The fact that you even think that maybe a new employee shouldn't be value-add on day one is suspect, and suggests you don't think you're capable of doing the job.

    2. What are the performance expectations for new hires in the first two weeks/first month?

    The same as performance expectations for anyone else. We'll let you go if you don't measure up. The fact that you asked suggests you think that you won't, and are looking for assurances that you'll be given a break during your "learning period." See above. Value add on day one or you're not a worthwhile hire.

    3. What methods will I have to track my performance, and make sure they are meet the job expectations?

    Oh look, another kid who needs handholding and participation trophies. This further compounds the idea that you're not confident in your ability to do the job, and suggests you've been unexpectedly fired for poor performance in the past, which in turn suggests you don't have much self-awareness.

    4. Will I be able to compare my performance to that of my peers?

    Of course not. And you won't be able to compare your pay to that of your peers either. We don't want people comparing themselves with their coworkers unless it's in a negative, "I'm not good enough" way. We certainly don't want to give you evidence that you're doing as good as or better than your peers, you might slack off.

    5. How are you going to provide real-time feedback on what I'm doing wrong, to make sure I can get you what you want?

    Again, this sounds like entitlement. You should be able to know on your own whether or not you're doing a good job.

    6. How many direct reports will my supervisor have, and how much time is he/she expected to spend interacting with each of them on a weekly basis?

    None of your business. Or sure, maybe it is, but why are you asking? This suggests you're either looking for more independence than you deserve, don't like being managed, or need to be micromanaged to be a good employee.

    7. What's the one question you really want to ask me that you haven't yet?

    This just invites inappropriate questions, and suggests that the interviewer doesn't know what he wants to ask you or learn. More points on the "this guy is full of himself" pile.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; July 11 2018 at 10:04:47 PM.

  20. #4120
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankunytjatjara View Post
    Of course it's microservices, but... I've seen websites described as microservices around here. In devops presentations, no less. Oh and "fucking db table" integration nails it... Neat! Looks like you've suffered through this before? Thanks for taking the time.
    Yeah I've done SOA for a while, and a bit of micro services (and a lot of SOA that pretends to be micro services). Just came off an API project for a large company, complete with The Thirty-One Principles of Good APIs. It was fairly large ; few hundred endpoints, 19 business units. Glad I was stuck in a single BU ha.

    Ah this drew my attention, are you combining some tools together? Stuff I know seems to only do the architecture design part, but probably I'm outdated. Ideally I'd ask people to tag their systems so, something that I can plug in the knowledge base, to read their tags from there... And get the architecture to update as a result. This would be incredibly useful. Do you suggest any particular tool for the graph to keep some EA standards? Aris and the like, I seem to remember to be rather top-down then the opposite, which seems a very good idea.
    No this was ad-hoc, using a shell script to parse oracle service bus proxies and biz refs and compile a graph of the services in GraphVis so I could work out wtf was going on (1400 EJB endpoints, was fucking ridiculous)

    You could probably do something similar by grabbing a bright grad and letting them loose. IME the procurement process for EA analysis software is brutal, and it costs a mint, and unless it's fed correct data (i.e. programmatically) then it gets out of date before the software even hits prod (and then gets out of date even faster because nobody tells the architects about operational changes once the project goes live).

    Eh, I wish, this is coming from rather low in the hierarchy and I have some doubts that any transformation can actually happen - until I see management buy-in with my eyes I won't believe in it (I've been assured that there's buy-in during the interview, at the usually fake do you have any questions time. Quite funny to feel that I was the one testing them).
    yeah that's a problem. You need someone high up to work out what the success criteria are, otherwise it will be a clusterfuck of people losing interest when the money or career-building opportunities dry up.

    Hit up some Jeff Bezos stories about how he made Amazon API-centric for some ammo, and look at all-in-one paper-over-a-disgusting-architecture-with-new-hotness services like APIGee (bought by google). It's a core concept of API-centric architectures that you need isolation facades between each layer before you can really do the major surgery to uplift anything. I was on a project that added an abstraction layer for a bank to let the digital banking team do their stuff while in the middle of switching from one core banking system to another. It ended up working so well that Oracle stole the idea and sold it back to them for a few million bucks, so I guess that counts as op success?
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


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