French elections

[Stoffl]

Some states in germany have actual NDP members(remember, NSDAP was the actual hitler-nazi party) in their state parliaments.
The thing in greece isn't exactly big news.

Retards gonna retard;Scapegoats gonna get scapegoated

[Chrien]

Pretty much... if you want to have a free society you have to accept that people of all political persuasions have the right to participate in the democratic process, even if the first thing they'd do if they got power would be to abolish democracy. Its both the strength and weakness of the liberal democratic system.

[Me]

Pretty much... if you want to have a free society you have to accept that people of all political persuasions have the right to participate in the democratic process, even if the first thing they'd do if they got power would be to abolish democracy. Its both the strength and weakness of the liberal democratic system.

If the people who get democratically elected want to do away with democracy and they didn't hide this during the elections then that is democracy at work since the people don't want democracy.

Or something like that.

[Tellenta]

Pretty much... if you want to have a free society you have to accept that people of all political persuasions have the right to participate in the democratic process, even if the first thing they'd do if they got power would be to abolish democracy. Its both the strength and weakness of the liberal democratic system.

If the people who get democratically elected want to do away with democracy and they didn't hide this during the elections then that is democracy at work since the people don't want democracy.

Or something like that.

That's some freedom right there.

edit: Though if people really don't want the right to vote for their leaders so much that they are willing to elect a soon to be dictator, or some close equivalent... Well people do say history repeats, and some people just don't want to have their voices heard i guess.

[Chrien]

Or if we're using history as a guide people vote for people who publicly state they will do away with democracy because they crave strong leadership. Think about whats happening globally in politics at the moment, one of the most common criticisms people make about politicians is how they don't demonstrate leadership, are too short term focused, etc etc... the commonality of this view has only increased as the global economy has tanked.
The current system of government's biggest selling point is that it claims to provide the opportunity for prosperity to everyone who is prepared to work for it. Right now its hard to sell that message.
Not that I'm predicting anything radical to happen to change much, most people are too lazy to really motivate themselves to get involved.

[Sykes]

So it looks like the Greek pro-austerity parties don't have enough votes to form a government (but then nor does anybody else)

It's going to be interesting to see what happens next. Calls for austerity to be imposed anyway, without any kind of democratic mandate seem likely.

Greece faces days, possibly weeks, of political instability after voters angry at crippling income cuts punished mainstream politicians.

They voted a far-right extremist group into Parliament but gave no party enough votes to govern alone.

With more than 99% of the vote counted, conservative New Democracy led with 18.9% and 108 of Parliament's 300 seats.

Party leader Antonis Samaras, who backs Greece's bailout commitments for austerity, will launch coalition-forming talks later today.

"I understand the rage of the people, but our party will not leave Greece ungoverned," said Mr Samaras.

But that could prove impossible because even with the support of the only other clearly pro-bailout party elected, Socialist Pasok, New Democracy would fall two seats short of a governing majority.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-7720435.html

[Sykes]

Oh look ...

Greek TV channels are reporting that the country's electoral earthquake has been met with "stunned silence" by officials at the International Monetary Fund in Washington. "Our sources at the fund are telling us they had no idea of the extent of the anger and anti-austerity feeling in Greece. They are amazed," said Alpha TV's Washington correspondent.

Given the IMF's role in the two bailouts that have propped up the Greek economy since May 2010, the fund is watched closely by US-based Greek journalists now famed for putting IMF spokesmen on the spot in daily briefings. "They are insisting they want commitments to the [debt relief] program," the correspondent said.

A team of EU monitors, to be placed permanently in the capital is expected to arrive within the week. Greek radio channels this morning reported the inspectors would want to see "solid proof" that Athens is determined to stick to the principles of its latest €130 bn financial support program.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...e-greek-market

[Sykes]

Meanwhile, back in France. As far as I can make out Hollande isn't really a full-on socialist, but more a sort of left Blairite.

He looks pretty left-wing compared to the swivel-eyed loons of US politics and the arrogant useless posh boys of the UK Tory party, but so would anyone short of Ayn Rand.

The BBC has this useful compilation of what he said he'd do if elected. A fair bit of Keynesian stimulus and a return to various traditional Gallic practices, but nothing about workers seizing the means of production.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17811579

[cheeba]

wow poor france. they are screwed now.

[Constantinus]

Neither the greek nor the french neo fascists can ever be true nazis for they lack the proper ayran heritage that seperates the glorious Herrenmensch ( now avaiable in black too! Just as your local Nation of Islam representative ) from the vile and despicable non ayran Untermensch.

But seriously, i doubt that the majority of french or greek voters are stupid enough to truly buy the neo fascist garbage.
Most of them are probably (hopefuly?) just fed up with their current leadership and decide to vote for extremists in order to display their discontent.

[TheManFromDelmonte]

Greek TV channels are reporting that the country's electoral earthquake has been met with "stunned silence" by officials at the International Monetary Fund in Washington. "Our sources at the fund are telling us they had no idea of the extent of the anger and anti-austerity feeling in Greece. They are amazed," said Alpha TV's Washington correspondent.

I cannot believe that. If the IMF is that poorly informed it really doesn't deserve to make decisions about money.

[Sykes]

Thing is though, if you've got a situation where the mainstream parties are putting the interests of capital above those of their own citizens and the screws are being tightened to the point where a large chunk of the population are feeling it too badly to be distracted by exclusive pictures of some minor celebrity's arse or a new iPhone they can buy on credit, then it's no surprise at all that they start looking for some alternatives to those mainstream parties.

So the resurgence of the far-right (as well as, one might hope, of the far-left) is a logical consequence of large numbers of ordinary people being increasingly blatantly screwed over by mainstream parties on behalf of finance capital.

[Constantinus]

Greek TV channels are reporting that the country's electoral earthquake has been met with "stunned silence" by officials at the International Monetary Fund in Washington. "Our sources at the fund are telling us they had no idea of the extent of the anger and anti-austerity feeling in Greece. They are amazed," said Alpha TV's Washington correspondent.

I cannot believe that. If the IMF is that poorly informed it really doesn't deserve to make decisions about money.

I think the statement is propaganda, made to save the IMF's face. After the greek elections they could either admit that they were aware of the bad mood within the greek population ( which would in turn mean that they acted against the wishes of the greek population ) or they could claim ignorance and mantain the facade of acting ( or at least that the believed of having acted ) in cooperation with the greek population.

[Sykes]

Greek TV channels are reporting that the country's electoral earthquake has been met with "stunned silence" by officials at the International Monetary Fund in Washington. "Our sources at the fund are telling us they had no idea of the extent of the anger and anti-austerity feeling in Greece. They are amazed," said Alpha TV's Washington correspondent.

I cannot believe that. If the IMF is that poorly informed it really doesn't deserve to make decisions about money.

I think the statement is propaganda, made to save the IMF's face. After the greek elections they could either admit that they were aware of the bad mood within the greek population ( which would in turn mean that they acted against the wishes of the greek population ) or they could claim ignorance and mantain the facade of acting ( or at least that the believed of having acted ) in cooperation with the greek population.

I tend to agree, which is why I'm now wondering how or even whether the interests demanding austerity will continue to maintain the façade of democracy.

Now that democracy has delivered a fairly resounding 'No, fuck off with your austerity policies!'

[Smuggo]

How exactly are people distinguishing between "actual Nazis" and the far right? They're the same fucking thing.

[Caldrion Dosto]

How exactly are people distinguishing between "actual Nazis" and the far right? They're the same fucking thing.

QFT

[Sykes]

How exactly are people distinguishing between "actual Nazis" and the far right? They're the same fucking thing.

Well, for example Anders Breivik would be classified by most people as 'far right' but he's also an enthusiastic supporter of Zionism, which actual Nazis rarely are.

[smagd]

It's really kind of confusing: I thought we could sit here in Europe and watch what'll happen to good old capitalism in the US, and improve on that fail.

Instead, we're doing a Weimarer Republic on our national governments domino-style and you folks get Obama II, which looks *far* more stable from where I'm sitting than what just happened to France and is likely going to happen to Germany next election.

Of all elections, Italy recently did a very amusing thing: Big bankers taking over the government in order to save their own behinds and I must have missed any recent disasters on that front.

Except, and that goes for the US especially: Stability is not a virtue if you're already in ruins.

Go ahead, proceed with the original plan.

[Perry]

How exactly are people distinguishing between "actual Nazis" and the far right? They're the same fucking thing.

actual nazi:

  Spoiler:

far right:

  Spoiler:

Know the difference.

[Sykes]

One of the key trends in recent European neo-Fascism has been a general rejection of outmoded anti-Semitism in favour of the much more saleable Islamophobia.

You can see it clearly with Marine Le Pen. Her dad was always coming out with grotesquely anti-Semitic remarks, whereas she's very careful to make sure that she and her followers only say horrible things about Muslims instead.

Now I would argue that while anti-Semitism and biological nationalism are characteristic of Nazi ideology, it's perfectly possible to be a fascist or neo-fascist without being anti-Semitic or of any particular race.

For example, Mussolini himself enthusiastically supported Vladimir Jabotinksy, founder of Revisionist Zionism (and hence very arguably, via his disciple Begin, of the current ruling political party in Israel) who he cheerfully called a 'Jewish Fascist', see e.g. http://www.marxists.de/middleast/iro...08-fascter.htm

The Greek Golden Dawn party, were caught vandalising synagogues quite recently and do demand proof of 'Aryan blood and Greek birth' as a requirement for entry which definitely sounds like neo-Nazism rather than some other variety of neo-fascism and they actively encourage Nazi salutes, where the BNP tend to facepalm whenever pictures appear of their local council candidates doing fingernail inspections in front of 'White Power' graffiti.

The Golden Dawn fairly recently traded Nazi paganism/occultism for Eastern Orthodox xtianity though, and they seem quite happy to kick the shit out of any Muslims unlucky enough to cross their paths, so maybe they're just a bit slower to see which way the wind is blowing than Mme Le Pen.