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Thread: CSM 7 General Gabbery

  1. #21
    Xiang Jiao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post
    Our 'goal' of improving comms is more a matter for us as a group (CSM) to solve than CCP holding us back in any way. We are actively working on several ideas which we'll roll out in the next few weeks once they become formalized.
    I urge the council to continue improving communications as best it can. I was mainly thinking back to around this time last year when there was much discussion on FHC about the public letter issued by CSM 5, and the months leading up to it. I know that was before the term of the 6th council but I can't help but wonder how different Incarna's reception would have been had CCP allowed the council to be more direct with the player base about what to expect from the Noble Exchange and walking in stations. After the Summer summit, there was a major two month delay with the meeting notes that showed there were signs of anxiety internally with the management who oversees interaction with the council. I understand there are areas of the game that will always be off-limits to the public, such as strategies against RMT and bots, and major changes to the economy which could lead to insider trading (moon mineral balancing comes to mind).

    There are still aspects of development which could benefit from more transparency like the upcoming retiering of Eve's ship classes. Also, I was dismayed to hear when CCP discontinued the QEN, which was issued far from quarterly before it was cancelled. This is probably outside the purview of the council, but it would be very beneficial if the council was allowed to review past data and statistics with CCP's blessings and issue approved findings to the curious parties online. I liked the idea of Mittani's fireside chats, but disliked the venue. I never logged into GS comms to listen but I read a transcript. Perhaps the CSM could do a bimonthly podcast fielding questions from listeners.

    I anxiously await hearing the ideas of the council.

  2. #22
    Donor LoudSpeakly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post
    Sup?
    Sup.

    One of the important roles the CSM fills is filtered feedback to CCP from the players about their game, but are CSM members happy about the way they get feedback from the players? Because the way I figure, we may as well get the most out of you, so give us an idea of what you want from the players. Are your Evemail inboxes considered a wasteland of unread messages? Do you want to hear about My Pet Idea for mining veldspar? Who do I complain to about the latest dev blog on ship balancing? Are you inclined to reply: "Make a thread in Jita Park about it" to half the inquiries you get? Are you satisfied with your current methodologies for guaging player reactions to EVE?

    In the end, threads like this one are pretty cool because it shows an interest and effort to connect with players who would otherwise be lost to the bitter, and for that <3. But this is one thread on an obscure subforum, of a site which has a volatile relationship to EVE Online. I reckon there are more efficient ways to go about doing your role, so you have more time to blow up spaceships and generally enjoy the game. No use burning out on the unfun stuff like what Mynxee did.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post
    Our 'goal' of improving comms is more a matter for us as a group (CSM) to solve than CCP holding us back in any way. We are actively working on several ideas which we'll roll out in the next few weeks once they become formalized.
    I urge the council to continue improving communications as best it can. I was mainly thinking back to around this time last year when there was much discussion on FHC about the public letter issued by CSM 5, and the months leading up to it. I know that was before the term of the 6th council but I can't help but wonder how different Incarna's reception would have been had CCP allowed the council to be more direct with the player base about what to expect from the Noble Exchange and walking in stations.
    M8, let me slow you down there. If you followed that mess at all then you're probably aware of just how little information CSM 6 had to share. We could have literally spilled everything we knew and, while a few things might have been revealed, the bottom line is that it would have all equaled the same end result anyway - CCP was in lala land. Everyone knew it and the release of Incarna proved it. I've blogged and spoke on this particular issue at some length - CCP missed a big chance with Incarna and did literally everything the CSM told them not to do in terms of communication, feature work, expectations, you name it. I wish it had been different as well, but CCP was a different company back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    After the Summer summit, there was a major two month delay with the meeting notes that showed there were signs of anxiety internally with the management who oversees interaction with the council. I understand there are areas of the game that will always be off-limits to the public, such as strategies against RMT and bots, and major changes to the economy which could lead to insider trading (moon mineral balancing comes to mind).
    Yeah, this isn't going to happen again. The CSM was fairly pissed that the back and forth on the minutes went the way it did and with the change in attitude from CCP over the last year, I can't see a repeat occurance taking place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    There are still aspects of development which could benefit from more transparency like the upcoming retiering of Eve's ship classes.
    FanFest > CSM Drama > Easter Vacation. Today is the first 'normal' work day for a lot of CCP in a couple weeks. I'm sure we will see (and the CSM will push for) an interactive iteration process on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    Also, I was dismayed to hear when CCP discontinued the QEN, which was issued far from quarterly before it was cancelled. This is probably outside the purview of the council, but it would be very beneficial if the council was allowed to review past data and statistics with CCP's blessings and issue approved findings to the curious parties online.
    We actually do get to see quite a lot of that stuff and are solicited for input on it as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    I liked the idea of Mittani's fireside chats, but disliked the venue. I never logged into GS comms to listen but I read a transcript. Perhaps the CSM could do a bimonthly podcast fielding questions from listeners.
    Quite a few of us are on some of the regular podcasts and EVE Radio regularly. Beyond that, we're looking at doing a version of the past EVE Dev chats using EVE Voice. We want to do some sort of "Town Hall" format on multiple occasions. Personally, in the near term, I would like to see us do something right before and then right after the June CSM Summit.

  4. #24
    Seleene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoudSpeakly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post
    Sup?
    Sup.

    One of the important roles the CSM fills is filtered feedback to CCP from the players about their game, but are CSM members happy about the way they get feedback from the players? Because the way I figure, we may as well get the most out of you, so give us an idea of what you want from the players. Are your Evemail inboxes considered a wasteland of unread messages? Do you want to hear about My Pet Idea for mining veldspar? Who do I complain to about the latest dev blog on ship balancing? Are you inclined to reply: "Make a thread in Jita Park about it" to half the inquiries you get? Are you satisfied with your current methodologies for guaging player reactions to EVE?
    In terms of direct contact, I consider EVE Mail to be one of the best ways to contact ME about a particular issue. Sometimes it's a simple HEY!! with a link to an idea somewhere. Other times it is deeper than that. I try to reply to most EVE Mails I get, especially those which are well presented and have a solid initiative behind them.

    As far as who to contact? There are thirteen of us and you might find more traction with someone who you feel is more familiar with your particular issue. However, if you're not familiar with the particular members, myself or any of the elected Council 'Officers' are solid and will make sure concerns are passed on to the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoudSpeakly View Post
    In the end, threads like this one are pretty cool because it shows an interest and effort to connect with players who would otherwise be lost to the bitter, and for that <3. But this is one thread on an obscure subforum, of a site which has a volatile relationship to EVE Online. I reckon there are more efficient ways to go about doing your role, so you have more time to blow up spaceships and generally enjoy the game. No use burning out on the unfun stuff like what Mynxee did.
    What we'll end up doing is taking a lot of the Q&A from this thread (and others) and cross-posting it over to the official forums, putting it into blogs, tweeting about it, etc... I find that starting threads like this and getting a good dialogue going helps a lot in resolving some problems before they begin.

  5. #25
    Smuggo
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    So more than 20 posts in and all we've really established is that the CSM thinks cyber-bullying is fine and not a big deal. I can see this thread going well.

  6. #26
    Donor Mike deVoid's Avatar
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    How long till you push the PL agenda.
    Damn, I missed that meeting. I guess PL is out of luck this term.
    WHAT IS THIS!?!?!

    You're supposed to be our puppet, that was the deal when we agreed to not really vote for you very much.

    Don't make me go all Sith8 on you m8.

  8. #28
    Seleene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raivi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    How long till you push the PL agenda.
    Damn, I missed that meeting. I guess PL is out of luck this term.
    WHAT IS THIS!?!?!

    You're supposed to be our puppet, that was the deal when we agreed to not really vote for you very much.

    Don't make me go all Sith8 on you m8.
    Gosh, just re-schedule the meeting. You are literally the WORST internet girlfriend.

  9. #29
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    we're not far from the FW change now, are you talking about the nullsec sov revamp, or is the subject closed for now ?

  10. #30
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    Which members of CSM7 are confirmed for the May Summit? What days will the May Summit take place? What will be the three or four key topics CSM7 will ask for sessions on at the May Summit?
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
    I was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer, to good effect. Or at least, that's what most of EVE believes.

  11. #31
    Xiang Jiao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    I liked the idea of Mittani's fireside chats, but disliked the venue. I never logged into GS comms to listen but I read a transcript. Perhaps the CSM could do a bimonthly podcast fielding questions from listeners.
    Quite a few of us are on some of the regular podcasts and EVE Radio regularly. Beyond that, we're looking at doing a version of the past EVE Dev chats using EVE Voice. We want to do some sort of "Town Hall" format on multiple occasions. Personally, in the near term, I would like to see us do something right before and then right after the June CSM Summit.
    I see links to other people's blogs, videos and podcasts on here quite often, but to be honest, I actually watch or listen to about 20% of the total media floating around (educated guess) and that's still a lot of media to take in. Perhaps I'm not dedicated or curious enough, or just want input on certain game aspects, and couldn't care at all about others (Dust, for example). Centralizing the CSM's voice (a section of the Eveonline website, for example) could go a long way towards making sure your messages are delivered to the players, and the player's collective messages are reaching CCP. Eve voice as a forum is a sensible idea except for one oversight, how can players who are not currently subbed take heed? I was a loyal customer for years 2007 through 2011. Why should I be left in the dark now? I don't think participating in the CSM forum or just listening in should be a right extended only to paying customers. I plan on subscribing for the month of May to participate in the Goon/Hulkegeddeon shenanigans, but I'll more than likely go back to being a bittervet afterwards and will miss the summit meetings.

    The problem is that the Eve community is very fractured, and everyone has their own venue for finding out about the game through habit or preference. Mine was SHC and is now FHC. Others trawl Kugu. Still others may be loyal listeners to one of the many Eve podcasts on the internet. If you want to be heard by everyone, you have to have an official venue that remains constant, and yell quite loudly "If you want to hear the latest from the CSM, and add your input, this is where you go!"

  12. #32
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    I, too, would like to see an Official communication from the CSM monthly or so. Having to chase down stuff from all over the place is a real pain and it's easy to miss things. Thank god for FHC in that regard. It keeps me up to date on most things without having to deal with the utter retardation that is the Eve-O forums.

    But a monthly communication doesn't even have to be a whole lot. Just a list of what you talked about with CCP (player concerns, feedback on new/iterated content, etc.) and an idea of the direction of things. This would make the CSM more relevant in the eyes of the general public. Perhaps it could be posted as a Dev Blog to get the most exposure.

    Also, it would be great if minutes from the Icelandic meetings didn't take so long to be released. I understand that there's a LOT of content, someone has to write it all, and it has to be passed through NDA filters a few times, but it does take a really long time. Not throwing poo at you guys - from the sound of it, most of the waiting time is on CCP's end.

    Minutes from the last CSM were nice, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post
    Quick note on this - we've got a 'bible' of sorts on WH related issues that we'll be pushing for as the year goes on.
    Is this something that you would be able to share?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    What will be the three or four key topics CSM7 will ask for sessions on at the May Summit?
    Also interested in this.

    Glad to see you on the CSM again Seleene. I also hope that the whole Mittani thing doesn't overshadow everything you guys do this year.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by raiden55 View Post
    we're not far from the FW change now, are you talking about the nullsec sov revamp, or is the subject closed for now ?
    What nullsec sov revamp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Which members of CSM7 are confirmed for the May Summit? What days will the May Summit take place? What will be the three or four key topics CSM7 will ask for sessions on at the May Summit?
    We don't even have a date for the summit, and it might be the early June summit. The people going is usually not nailed down until 3 weeks or so before the summit. So far, I haven't heard any of the top 7 not being able to make it. My personal key topics:
    1) POS rewrite
    2) More balance work
    3) New mining/industry stuff (Seleene is big on this, being the former leader of the Mining Coalition)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    I see links to other people's blogs, videos and podcasts on here quite often, but to be honest, I actually watch or listen to about 20% of the total media floating around (educated guess) and that's still a lot of media to take in. Perhaps I'm not dedicated or curious enough, or just want input on certain game aspects, and couldn't care at all about others (Dust, for example). Centralizing the CSM's voice (a section of the Eveonline website, for example) could go a long way towards making sure your messages are delivered to the players, and the player's collective messages are reaching CCP. Eve voice as a forum is a sensible idea except for one oversight, how can players who are not currently subbed take heed? I was a loyal customer for years 2007 through 2011. Why should I be left in the dark now? I don't think participating in the CSM forum or just listening in should be a right extended only to paying customers. I plan on subscribing for the month of May to participate in the Goon/Hulkegeddeon shenanigans, but I'll more than likely go back to being a bittervet afterwards and will miss the summit meetings.

    The problem is that the Eve community is very fractured, and everyone has their own venue for finding out about the game through habit or preference. Mine was SHC and is now FHC. Others trawl Kugu. Still others may be loyal listeners to one of the many Eve podcasts on the internet. If you want to be heard by everyone, you have to have an official venue that remains constant, and yell quite loudly "If you want to hear the latest from the CSM, and add your input, this is where you go!"
    We are trying to do exactly this. I think you can make a trial account and come listen to the eve-voice chats, or maybe someone knows how to record eve-voice and we can put it up on soundcloud or something.

    I'm not *that* sympathetic to unsubbed people though, and I think this is where I insert the joke about FHC being the place where unsubbed people go to read about EVE. If you want to have a voice in how the game is developed, you need to play the game (or at least pay CCP), IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea Griffin View Post
    I, too, would like to see an Official communication from the CSM monthly or so. Having to chase down stuff from all over the place is a real pain and it's easy to miss things. Thank god for FHC in that regard. It keeps me up to date on most things without having to deal with the utter retardation that is the Eve-O forums.

    But a monthly communication doesn't even have to be a whole lot. Just a list of what you talked about with CCP (player concerns, feedback on new/iterated content, etc.) and an idea of the direction of things. This would make the CSM more relevant in the eyes of the general public. Perhaps it could be posted as a Dev Blog to get the most exposure.

    Also, it would be great if minutes from the Icelandic meetings didn't take so long to be released. I understand that there's a LOT of content, someone has to write it all, and it has to be passed through NDA filters a few times, but it does take a really long time. Not throwing poo at you guys - from the sound of it, most of the waiting time is on CCP's end.

    Minutes from the last CSM were nice, by the way.
    As I said above, we are working on this. In general, we are trying to talk in as many places as possible, including CSM dev blogs, eve-o, here, twitter, podcasts, etc.

    It can be tough to release stuff like a list of what we talked about though, because often the list of topics themselves would cause market panic and whatnot. It is also very important for CCP to be able to come to us with stuff like "Hey, we want to double the HP on Titans, is that a good idea?" and not have that sort of thing go public.

    As for minutes, one of the changes to the CSM whitepaper I would like to propose is that *every* CSM member must write minutes for at least one session, or they are disqualified from going to Iceland for the next summit. If that happened, we would be able to get minutes out a whole lot faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea Griffin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post
    Quick note on this - we've got a 'bible' of sorts on WH related issues that we'll be pushing for as the year goes on.
    Is this something that you would be able to share?
    I think I know what Seleene is talking about, though I wouldn't call it a bible. Between me and a couple of constituents, we have a very long list of stuff that wormhole folks would like to see done. I'm not sure what the chances of getting any of it done are, but it is better to have a list and not have any of it worked on then to not have the list in the first place.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    We are trying to do exactly this. I think you can make a trial account and come listen to the eve-voice chats, or maybe someone knows how to record eve-voice and we can put it up on soundcloud or something.

    I'm not *that* sympathetic to unsubbed people though, and I think this is where I insert the joke about FHC being the place where unsubbed people go to read about EVE. If you want to have a voice in how the game is developed, you need to play the game (or at least pay CCP), IMHO.
    Your jib at FHC is funny because it's true. I think that many here don't keep their accounts dutifully subbed via credit card year 'round. I had three accounts on six month/yearly cycles for four years. Then Incarna hit. You and CCP are welcome to share this point of view, "Why the fuck should we care about them if they're not giving us money?" In my mind, they lost my money when they introduced Incarna/NeX, and if I intend to play at all it will be with other people's money (PLEX). They've started to erase the stupidity that was Incarna, except the NeX store remains. Hopefully, they'll phase it out since it's not really useful for anything now.

    Not paying attention to former customers beyond sending them emails occasionally for reduced cost subscription offers is an ignorant and misguided path to take. We are here and still interested in the game, but waiting for something positive to come to fruition in Iceland. The stage is almost set. CCP can't afford to fuck it up now. The CSM needs to be there to remind them that. The CSM's standards of communication and interaction should be publicly offered on a website that is totally divorced from an alliance vox server and private blogs/poscasts.

  15. #35
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    I'm not *that* sympathetic to unsubbed people though, and I think this is where I insert the joke about FHC being the place where unsubbed people go to read about EVE. If you want to have a voice in how the game is developed, you need to play the game (or at least pay CCP), IMHO.
    Pretty damn sure thousands of players deciding not to pay CCP last summer had a huge voice in how the game was being developed.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    Between me and a couple of constituents, we have a very long list of stuff that wormhole folks would like to see done.
    I hope that list includes Sleepers with super capitals occasionally attacking a POS in an attempt to destroy, because that would be awesome!

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    We are trying to do exactly this. I think you can make a trial account and come listen to the eve-voice chats, or maybe someone knows how to record eve-voice and we can put it up on soundcloud or something.

    I'm not *that* sympathetic to unsubbed people though, and I think this is where I insert the joke about FHC being the place where unsubbed people go to read about EVE. If you want to have a voice in how the game is developed, you need to play the game (or at least pay CCP), IMHO.
    Your jib at FHC is funny because it's true. I think that many here don't keep their accounts dutifully subbed via credit card year 'round. I had three accounts on six month/yearly cycles for four years. Then Incarna hit. You and CCP are welcome to share this point of view, "Why the fuck should we care about them if they're not giving us money?" In my mind, they lost my money when they introduced Incarna/NeX, and if I intend to play at all it will be with other people's money (PLEX). They've started to erase the stupidity that was Incarna, except the NeX store remains. Hopefully, they'll phase it out since it's not really useful for anything now.

    Not paying attention to former customers beyond sending them emails occasionally for reduced cost subscription offers is an ignorant and misguided path to take. We are here and still interested in the game, but waiting for something positive to come to fruition in Iceland. The stage is almost set. CCP can't afford to fuck it up now. The CSM needs to be there to remind them that. The CSM's standards of communication and interaction should be publicly offered on a website that is totally divorced from an alliance vox server and private blogs/poscasts.
    I think this is getting well into the absurd, but wtf is a "private blog/podcast"? Of all the means of communication we would be using, there are exactly 2 that are unavailable to you, eve-voice and the official forums, though you can still read the forums. I know the CSM is kinda like a little parliament, but it is a parliament for a *game*. If you don't want to play the game, I think you lose your right to bitch about the way we communicate. It isn't the job of the CSM to get unsubbed people back into the game.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid View Post
    With regards to the positions and who was chosen, I was looking for an elaboration for yourself and two step and why your respective positions are the best ones.
    Quoting because I guess Seleene missed this. I've yet to hear anyone really explain why they did not support the candidate with the second highest number of votes as chairman. Any comment Mister Chairman?
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    I think this is getting well into the absurd, but wtf is a "private blog/podcast"? Of all the means of communication we would be using, there are exactly 2 that are unavailable to you, eve-voice and the official forums, though you can still read the forums. I know the CSM is kinda like a little parliament, but it is a parliament for a *game*. If you don't want to play the game, I think you lose your right to bitch about the way we communicate. It isn't the job of the CSM to get unsubbed people back into the game.
    It's within your right to think my comments absurd, but just consider the advantages of having a public forum for all things CSM related. You get to more efficiently control the message to past, current, and future players even though you dismiss the past players as outside the scope of your communication. Instead of making the rounds to various websites, you can minimize the effort involved in accomplishing the CSM's stated goal that your chairman stressed in this thread. CCP and the council both seem eager to foster a stronger New Player Experience. What better way is there to court new and prospective players than to offer them a direct vehicle into the game and what the council is doing? You can still independently Twitter and blog as much as you desire, but the official site is there shaping your joint message with the assistance of CCP. From inside the trenches, perhaps you don't see a need for a central public venue, but I think it will give the council and CCP greater exposure and better results when it comes to interacting with the players. From an outside perspective (my perspective at least), being able to tune into your message from one centralized node is a great boon. Feel free to point me to the right location if this venue already exists as I haven't visited Eve's website in a bit. I am stuck in my stubborn ways and continue to come here to look for news and goings on.

    I am very glad that you and Seleene are officers involved with the council. Whatever your strategy, I have faith that you will make advancements bringing CCP closer to the players.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid View Post
    With regards to the positions and who was chosen, I was looking for an elaboration for yourself and two step and why your respective positions are the best ones.
    Quoting because I guess Seleene missed this. I've yet to hear anyone really explain why they did not support the candidate with the second highest number of votes as chairman. Any comment Mister Chairman?
    I'm not going to speak for why people voted the way they did; folks can do that if and when they wish. Hans and Alek have done so in the comments of one of Jester's blogs. Trebor has also said a few words on it. As for why me and Two Step? Well, there was more than just us but after a bit of discussion it just came down to me and him and a vote was taken. I'm assuming you know a bit about myself and Two Step but if not we can elaborate a bit more.

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