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Thread: CSM 7 General Gabbery

  1. #1
    Seleene's Avatar
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    CSM 7 General Gabbery

    This is a thread for folks to ask about stuff to the members of the Icelandic Spaceship Parliament Council.

    Sup?

  2. #2
    Donor Mike deVoid's Avatar
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    Why was there a vote for the CSM7 chairman when mittens was never chairman in the first place (for CSM7) and hence arguably it should have gone to two step without a vote?

    Why did you collectively decide to make seleene chair and two step secretary? Is this the reason you wanted a vote to take place for chairmanship?

    What will the CSM be doing different this year than last?

  3. #3
    Seleene's Avatar
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    Mike, I am curious and not being sarcastic - have you not read any of the responses / blogs on these questions elsewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid View Post
    Why was there a vote for the CSM7 chairman when mittens was never chairman in the first place (for CSM7) and hence arguably it should have gone to two step without a vote?
    We asked these same questions to CCP and we were told there had to be a vote. I covered this in my blog a few days ago. Also, Jester wrote a blog and Hans and Alek posted their positions in the comments section.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid
    Why did you collectively decide to make seleene chair and two step secretary? Is this the reason you wanted a vote to take place for chairmanship?
    There was no collective decision. Each position went to a vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid
    What will the CSM be doing different this year than last?
    We're fairly determined to improve visibility and transparency where possible by putting as much information out to the community as we can. Forums, twitter, blogs, podcasts, EVE Radio, etc... There is also the fact that we don't have "alts" anymore and everyone feels much more involved this year. Hopefully we won't have to waste time this year with emergency summits brought on by bad decisions and be able to focus a whole terms on advocating the stuff we'd all like to see improve in the game.

  4. #4
    Donor Mike deVoid's Avatar
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    Sorry, by collective decision I did mean the result of the vote. I had read a bit elsewhere but there's hardly a single source which makes it rather easy to miss responses. And I just don't read eve-o forums unless I'm linked to a thread.

    With regards to the positions and who was chosen, I was looking for an elaboration for yourself and two step and why your respective positions are the best ones. Your blogpost doesn't explain to well what your role is as chairman (probably a problem with the position having no role). From the reading I've done just now, I gather that two step as secretary will allow him to function as a communication officer which matches well his goals this year (improved communication). Though perhaps two step himself can give a fuller answer?

    Hans' and Alek's comments on Jester's blog are actually great comments. But it just shows how some CSM voices and words are easily lost - even when I do read Jester's blogs, I don't read all the comments written there.

    I feel quite placated right now. I'll be asking some game balance questions tomorrow. Congrats on getting Chairman.

  5. #5
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    Mittens vs krutoj vs prom vs ankh - are their punishments consistent in scale?


    Blah blah blah tapatalk
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  6. #6
    Donor Mike deVoid's Avatar
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    There's also larkonnis

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid View Post
    Sorry, by collective decision I did mean the result of the vote. I had read a bit elsewhere but there's hardly a single source which makes it rather easy to miss responses. And I just don't read eve-o forums unless I'm linked to a thread.

    With regards to the positions and who was chosen, I was looking for an elaboration for yourself and two step and why your respective positions are the best ones. Your blogpost doesn't explain to well what your role is as chairman (probably a problem with the position having no role). From the reading I've done just now, I gather that two step as secretary will allow him to function as a communication officer which matches well his goals this year (improved communication). Though perhaps two step himself can give a fuller answer?

    Hans' and Alek's comments on Jester's blog are actually great comments. But it just shows how some CSM voices and words are easily lost - even when I do read Jester's blogs, I don't read all the comments written there.

    I feel quite placated right now. I'll be asking some game balance questions tomorrow. Congrats on getting Chairman.
    Well, I would have preferred to be chairman, though I do feel secretary is a good second choice. I do think Seleene will do a good job as chair. Contrary to some popular belief, the votes weren't rigged or anything, that was really how people voted based on who they thought would do the best job at each position. My vote went to myself for a couple of reasons:
    1) I put in the time and effort during CSM 6.
    2) The voters deserve some input into the decision.
    3) I don't like the message that having someone with a PL alliance tag sends about the CSM. I think if anyone actually looks into what Seleene says, it is quite clear that he isn't just pushing PL agenda items on the CSM, but I felt that the CSM as a whole would be better off with a more neutral chairman, especially on issues like titans and tech.

    As for drawing attention to CSM comments, I think that is one of the things we still need to figure out. We clearly need to be doing a better job and being more open with folks, and we aren't totally sure how best to approach that.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sponk View Post
    Mittens vs krutoj vs prom vs ankh - are their punishments consistent in scale?
    Huh? Krut was *mistakenly* banned for RMT stuff for like 2 days at one point during the term, but that was because he collects the rent for Shadow of XXdeathXX and some renter RMTed for his rent ISK. It was sorted out, and he was unbanned.

    I don't think prom was punished at all for anything, and I have no idea what you think he should have been punished for.

    Ankh and Lark both broke the NDA. I don't see anything at all wrong with their punishments.

    I don't agree with Mitten's punishment, but it also isn't my job to enforce CCP's rules. I don't like that CCP is now applying the EULA and TOS to non-game actions, and I especially don't like that they aren't being clear about which actions are subject to them. I made my position totally clear to CCP when we talked about Mitten's ban.

  9. #9
    Leboe's Avatar
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    I understand seleene was very preoccupied last year, is he going to be around this year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leboe View Post
    I understand seleene was very preoccupied last year, is he going to be around this year?
    I actually don't even know what to make of this. Do you think my peers would have put me in the chair position if they thought I came up short last term?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    I don't agree with Mitten's punishment, but it also isn't my job to enforce CCP's rules. I don't like that CCP is now applying the EULA and TOS to non-game actions, and I especially don't like that they aren't being clear about which actions are subject to them. I made my position totally clear to CCP when we talked about Mitten's ban.
    I thought Mittens should have been allowed to stay on board as well, but CCP basically said that they viewed the Alliance panel as an 'official forum', hence the application of 'the law'. One point I raised was that, in reading the TOS, it pretty much says that you can be nuked for anything at anytime. For example, "Implying dev favoritism" is supposed to be against the TOS, but with as chummy as the devs are these days on Twitter or at Fanfest CCP could ban the entire CSM and a good chunk of other folks. Obviously CCP reserves the right to determine how they apply thier own rules and what Mittens did crossed a line in thier eyes. To his credit, Mittens has taken this whole mess more gracefully than many of his 'supporters'.

  12. #12
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    It's a bit odd how the CSM is still entirely CCP's experiment in democracy. It'd be impossible to really have an independent council, but you'd figure CCP could leave some decision-making to you guys instead of 'here's how shit's gonna go down, i hope you guys don't mind.' Anyhow...few questions:

    - Do you guys plan on 'spotlighting' or otherwise publically focusing on a particular issue/feature you'd like to see, like was done early on with CSM6 and TiDi? The impression I got was that it was fairly effective in focusing CCP's attention on a particular issue.

    - Has CCP discussed how the CSM are going to be involved with Dust 514? I would imagine they'd want player feedback for it as much as they do on EVE, but have they signalled that there might be a CSM for Dust or whether they'll have dust CSM reps running in our elections, or what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    It's a bit odd how the CSM is still entirely CCP's experiment in democracy. It'd be impossible to really have an independent council, but you'd figure CCP could leave some decision-making to you guys instead of 'here's how shit's gonna go down, i hope you guys don't mind.' Anyhow...few questions:

    - Do you guys plan on 'spotlighting' or otherwise publically focusing on a particular issue/feature you'd like to see, like was done early on with CSM6 and TiDi? The impression I got was that it was fairly effective in focusing CCP's attention on a particular issue.

    - Has CCP discussed how the CSM are going to be involved with Dust 514? I would imagine they'd want player feedback for it as much as they do on EVE, but have they signalled that there might be a CSM for Dust or whether they'll have dust CSM reps running in our elections, or what?
    I expect we will likely stick with the spotlighting, though nothing has been decided yet.

    We have had brief discussions about DUST. I don't think CCP has made their mind up yet, and I would expect for them to wait until after DUST is closer to release to decide some of that stuff. Assuming DUST is successful, I would expect we would see people running for EVE CSM based on their DUST achievements even if CCP doesn't change anything.

  14. #14
    Moderator Movember 2011DonorModerator Cue1*'s Avatar
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    For two step: do you plan on pushing hard for wormhole specific changes or more general?

    What kind of wormhole related changes are you interested in pushing, if any? Is POS security on the table?

  15. #15
    Varcaus's Avatar
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    How long till you push the PL agenda.

  16. #16
    Xiang Jiao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post
    We're fairly determined to improve visibility and transparency where possible by putting as much information out to the community as we can.
    What is your plan in pushing this agenda when confined to the NDA? Has CCP given any indication that they wish to accommodate your stated goal by offering the CSM more leeway with regard to transparency - the "we have nothing to hide" approach. Of course, you could be suggesting CSM transparency, but when I think CSM and information, I'm thinking of what CCP tells you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    For two step: do you plan on pushing hard for wormhole specific changes or more general?

    What kind of wormhole related changes are you interested in pushing, if any? Is POS security on the table?
    My number one priority remains POSes. At Fanfest, CCP indicated that they might be willing to do the long awaited POS rewrite after Inferno, and I will be doing my best to make sure that happens (and is done properly)

  18. #18
    Seleene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    It's a bit odd how the CSM is still entirely CCP's experiment in democracy. It'd be impossible to really have an independent council, but you'd figure CCP could leave some decision-making to you guys instead of 'here's how shit's gonna go down, i hope you guys don't mind.'
    Well, there are rules for any elective system. I'm not really sure what 'influence' people think that CCP has over any of the CSM members that keeps us from being 'independent'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    - Do you guys plan on 'spotlighting' or otherwise publically focusing on a particular issue/feature you'd like to see, like was done early on with CSM6 and TiDi? The impression I got was that it was fairly effective in focusing CCP's attention on a particular issue.
    Yep. There are a lot of things that are going on already, which was the case with TiDi as well, but the CSM seems to be pretty unanimous in that we're going to 'spotlight' a POS re-vamp as our big ~thing~ to make sure it doesn't get side-tracked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampoliros View Post
    - Has CCP discussed how the CSM are going to be involved with Dust 514? I would imagine they'd want player feedback for it as much as they do on EVE, but have they signalled that there might be a CSM for Dust or whether they'll have dust CSM reps running in our elections, or what?
    There's been no talk so far about a DUST CSM or whatever. We met with the Senior and Executive producers of DUST before FanFest and several of us spoke even more with them over that weekend. They seemed much more engaged and positive about soliciting information and opinions from the CSM and the player base than what I've seen before. Now that the 'covers are off' of DUST, I expect to see CSM 7 more involved in how the two games affect each other.

  19. #19
    Seleene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Seleene View Post
    We're fairly determined to improve visibility and transparency where possible by putting as much information out to the community as we can.
    What is your plan in pushing this agenda when confined to the NDA? Has CCP given any indication that they wish to accommodate your stated goal by offering the CSM more leeway with regard to transparency - the "we have nothing to hide" approach. Of course, you could be suggesting CSM transparency, but when I think CSM and information, I'm thinking of what CCP tells you.
    I know it's hard not to tinfoil this stuff, but the fact is that when I make a post on my blog about the summits or whatever else, or when I speak in public, no one is telling me what to write or say. Most of the NDA stuff is pretty common sense and for anything that isn't, I generally just give Xhagen or Diagoras a poke and ask if it's okay to print. Usually, they push for more info over less.

    Our 'goal' of improving comms is more a matter for us as a group (CSM) to solve than CCP holding us back in any way. We are actively working on several ideas which we'll roll out in the next few weeks once they become formalized.

  20. #20
    Seleene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    What kind of wormhole related changes are you interested in pushing, if any? Is POS security on the table?
    Quick note on this - we've got a 'bible' of sorts on WH related issues that we'll be pushing for as the year goes on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    How long till you push the PL agenda.
    Damn, I missed that meeting. I guess PL is out of luck this term.
    Last edited by Seleene; April 10 2012 at 07:53:13 AM.

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