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Thread: Countering Tornados a.k.a. welcome to metagaming~

  1. #21
    glepp's Avatar
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    If you're not flying tanky snipers, it's a matter of tackle versus tank.

    If you can tackle enough of them at close range (provided favorable fighting terms) that the ones that burn off cannot alpha through your logistics, you win. If you can't, you lose.

  2. #22
    AndersonW's Avatar
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    In your guy's opinion how often does the Alliance FLYING said fleets matter in your attempt to counter fleets. Granted to beat a tornado fleet, unless you comp for it you have to use some good manuvering to defeat them but if your like set against an Alliance that obviously isnt scrub does that matter when your deciding to fight or not?

    For example... United. RR BS gang is a pretty good gang. So me as an FC would prolly think twice before engaging unless I was sure we had a shot. Is this the case for some of you? Like I think glepp said... that they would do well 6-8 Oneiros/diemos vs 10-15 Tornados... my question is would it matter if it was Alliance A or Alliance B?

  3. #23
    glepp's Avatar
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    6-8 scram fit armor tanked MWD/AB HACs, with enough logi support and tank to withstand the alpha from 7-8 Tornados, could theoretically take on and beat a 15 man tornado gang provided the following:
    1. Fight starts at zero (or at least within OH scram range minus a few km)
    2. Each and every HAC manages to tackle a separate Tornado and hold it down.

    #1 is hard against a skilled opponent.
    #2 is hard to coordinate and even harder to execute properly.

    So it's a high risk as tornados are dirt cheap and most will probably gtfo. If you agress, fail to tackle and they burn off, then a couple of your ships will probably die to alpha while deagressing. with 6-8 HACs against 20-25 Alphanados, it's not worth it, because regardless of how many of you land scram, your opponent will have enough alpha to nuke you down anyway. What you don't want is a kiting/chasing battle against an opponent that has enough ships left to alpha you. It's also a matter of support ships on the Tornado side, with enough Rapiers/Huginns, they can lock down a large part of your fleet and increase the alpha damage quite a bit (webs/paints). So yeah, a DP Deimos fleet can take the fight, but only under perfect conditions and with semi-similar numbers.

    Against a skilled opponent like Rote, I'd be cautions getting into the fight and always leave myself a chance to gtfo if unsuccessful. I'd imagine Rote doing the same and most of the fight being a dance for positioning until one side goes "feckit, let's just go for it" or "feckit, not happening today".

    As for RRBS, it depends on their range. If close range, then an Alphanado fleet should wipe the floor with them, provided decent numbers.
    Last edited by glepp; February 3 2012 at 02:10:33 PM.

  4. #24
    AndersonW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glepp View Post
    6-8 scram fit armor tanked MWD/AB HACs, with enough logi support and tank to withstand the alpha from 7-8 Tornados, could theoretically take on and beat a 15 man tornado gang provided the following:
    1. Fight starts at zero (or at least within OH scram range minus a few km)
    2. Each and every HAC manages to tackle a separate Tornado and hold it down.

    #1 is hard against a skilled opponent.
    #2 is hard to coordinate and even harder to execute properly.

    So it's a high risk as tornados are dirt cheap and most will probably gtfo. If you agress, fail to tackle and they burn off, then a couple of your ships will probably die to alpha while deagressing. with 6-8 HACs against 20-25 Alphanados, it's not worth it, because regardless of how many of you land scram, your opponent will have enough alpha to nuke you down anyway. What you don't want is a kiting/chasing battle against an opponent that has enough ships left to alpha you. It's also a matter of support ships on the Tornado side, with enough Rapiers/Huginns, they can lock down a large part of your fleet and increase the alpha damage quite a bit (webs/paints). So yeah, a DP Deimos fleet can take the fight, but only under perfect conditions and with semi-similar numbers.

    Against a skilled opponent like Rote, I'd be cautions getting into the fight and always leave myself a chance to gtfo if unsuccessful. I'd imagine Rote doing the same and most of the fight being a dance for positioning until one side goes "feckit, let's just go for it" or "feckit, not happening today".

    As for RRBS, it depends on their range. If close range, then an Alphanado fleet should wipe the floor with them, provided decent numbers.
    I wasnt as much comparing the RR BS vs Tornado gang as much an RR bs gang vs RR BS with the alliance or party involved factoring into the psychological aspect of the engagement.

  5. #25
    glepp's Avatar
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    Ah right.

    Well, if you're planning on taking on someone you know to be skilled, especially with the same setup or one that's not a direct counter to you/you are not a direct counter to, then yes, you take that into account. Not saying "THESE GUYS ARE GOOD, DON'T ENGAGE BECAUSE OF EVEN NUMBERS", more like, "Yeah, these guys are good, so be on your toes, gentlemen." You also take into account whether you're likely to get hotdropped.

    Thought this was a discussion about The World vs Tornados though...

  6. #26
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Fascinating thread, and pretty much showing where I thought we'd be right now. Who was it who said that the Talos was the best of the bunch again?

    Arties need a bit of a nerf or frigs need a bit of a boost tbh. It would be no problem at all if a gang of ceptors 99 times out of 100, took no damage sensibly approaching any large turret, sniper gang at range.

  7. #27
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
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    talos is the best for adding to a mixed comp shield fleet (you know the, "hey let's roam" "what we bringing?" "oh, shield nano..."). tornado is better in a gang built specifically around it, and i'm not even sure that's true because i haven't seen people even try 15 talos + support (holy fuck dps). i know at least in my small corp we just have had more tornado pilots than talos pilots from day 1, not because they were better, but because winmatar has been winmatar for ages, so more people had t2 large AC than t2 large blasters. but we don't generally bother bringing lone tornado's in 'mixed bag fleets' because those pilots are normally better off bringing something else. (whilst there's rarely anything better than a talos that someone could bring )

    or to put it another way, corp funds talos's but you can buy your own tornados

    *really wants a talos gang now*

    also, the issue with mwd'ing armour HACs vs tornado's isn't so much the alpha, it's the 'chase' leaving the oneiros behind. we've found we can keep everyone alive pretty easily, but that by the time the deimos' have caught the tornado's the logi's are lagging dangerously behind. a few time's we've had to slow down and lose the chance to tackle to keep reps running.

    6-8 scram fit armor tanked MWD/AB HACs, with enough logi support and tank to withstand the alpha from 7-8 Tornados, could theoretically take on and beat a 15 man tornado gang provided the following:
    1. Fight starts at zero (or at least within OH scram range minus a few km)
    2. Each and every HAC manages to tackle a separate Tornado and hold it down.
    this isn't really true. in every fight i've had vs tornado's we've started 30-50km away from them, it's tough but starting at 0km isnt a prerequisite. though i dunno whether you mean '15 man tornado gang' as '15 tornados + support' or 'tornado's + support equalling 15 guys'. because fuck burning into the alpha of 15 tornado's >_<

    regarding the quality of the opposition, yeah it kind of matters.

    against bads, somehow we always seem to be able to get onto and take out their hugins and scimi's quickly... a better quality of player/alliance just doesn't give you that chance (or at least you'd hope not). bads are entirely capable of losing track of their distance from things while concentrating on webing/repping etc, and you can take advantage of that. against an entity with a repuation for competence i wouldn't expect to get those opportunitie and probs wouldn't engage unless we were gifted an opportunity (like scimi's/range control being at 0km to a celestial, or near a wreck etc).
    Last edited by Shiodome; February 3 2012 at 04:24:22 PM.

  8. #28
    glepp's Avatar
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    I was thinking 15 Alphanados + support. Burning into that alpha is pretty ballsy... 10 + support is a bit less dangerous.

  9. #29
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    ANDERSON STOP HIJACKING THREADS GODDAMMIT

    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Arties need a bit of a nerf or frigs need a bit of a boost tbh. It would be no problem at all if a gang of ceptors 99 times out of 100, took no damage sensibly approaching any large turret, sniper gang at range.
    Dunno what your experience is like, but we have a king-hell-bitch of a time trying to hit Drams that approach us for warp-ins even when the fuckers are painted and webbed. 99 times out of 100 it should be the Tornado's support fleet that's killing frigates, not the Tornados themselves. We (Rote) might not fly with enough raw numbers for lucky hits to accumulate meaningfully. Do arties really hit frigates that well en mass?
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  10. #30
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
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    no, they don't. assuming approaching via at least some kind of angle it's not really an issue for frigs to get tackle on unsupported tornado's. huggins obviously make a difference there, but that's nothing to do with frigs not being good enough at the role.

  11. #31
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    no, they don't. assuming approaching via at least some kind of angle it's not really an issue for frigs to get tackle on unsupported tornado's. huggins obviously make a difference there, but that's nothing to do with frigs not being good enough at the role.
    If the pilot flying the tornado is dumb and does little to counter ceptor transversal then no, it's not an issue. But I usually look at things from the pov of what happens when both pilots know how to fly their ships. Combine that with recon webs/tps and well, yeah...

  12. #32
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    M8

    On the contrary, with the aspect of metagaming/theorycrafting/consistancy and frequent use of gangs coupled with the prevelance of said gang and experience with those gangs by the individuals using them its a pretty legitimate question. The psychological aspect of any fleet is significantly an influencer of fleet fights. Even the most well thought out and effective strategy or comp could fail due to mentality/stress/fear/apprehension/error of the opposing fleet.

    For instance, if you were fighting Alliance A who is known for hotdropping all of the time, you may fly your fleet DIFFERENTLY than you would in an attempt to fight them. Maybe not warp to 0, maybe use a drag bubble. If Alliance A is nortorious for fitting damps onto thier gangs, would you not plan accordingly? Maybe ECM. These variables can limit or hinder your want/desire to get involved in conflicts with other groups off the sheer chance of a variable you cannot account for nor comp against. The example being hot drops.

    In addition the fear of a loss may override your want to attempt to take on said fleet especially if your not perfectly comped for them. The example would be like AHACs vs Tornado fleet without the appropriate speed mod/recon/position to engage playing in the favor of the AHAC gang. This is a prime example of a HUGE advantage in the way of the tornado fleet especially if they can dictate distance.


    The perfect example happened recently when the IRED/SEDI gang in some BCs with a more bulk DPS/Range Oracle/Naga gang engaged a ROTE AHAC gang with Guardian support and the Ahacs some having mwds and some having ABs. This is textbook disadvantage for the Ahac gang considering the IRED/SEDI gang came in at range and we gave chase. The Variables being our ability to tackle, hold them there, maintane reps, isolate thier tackle, any Recons being present we cant get to because of our inability to hit at farther range and or burn.. and so on. This could disuade even some confident FCs into attempting an OBVIOUSLY dangerous fleet manuver to attack and even kill the Ranged DPS gang. However our FC attempted it, and due to an excellent webbing loki, Logistics doing thier best to keep us alive, and some luck we did a better job than maybe I would have expected. This is a serious example where mindset, and the FC play an almost as large a role in success than Fleet comp.

    Another example is when I fc'd a SEDI gang and we landed ontop a BS/BC gang that had double our numbers and scorpions on the field. Normally my gang had a numerous disadvantages but variables such as IRED's help, my expierence, some serious luck and a huge blunder on the side of the opposing fleet led us to a pretty great victory. If your not willing to fight an opposing fleet, or worried you cant win because of who your fighting, theres ALMOST no point.

    The connection I was making or maybe the point I was leaning towards was, if a gang was more commonly using a fleet type I.E. tornados and you were flying in an AHAC gang, you may avoid fighting that gang because of several factors such as the fear of loss and the odds playing too much OUT of your favor. The inevitable fact is you can decide on the best course of action all day, you can give them the tools, you can get the CHANCE.. if you cant pull the trigger which is a mindset that I think is the real problem here especially verse a gang like Tornados. If you know that the people your fighting are good with thier tactics, or there are too many variables you cant comp for/cant out manuver then you may regardless of even the best comp attempt to fight the other fleet. Fights are not won by comp alone, they are won and lost primarily by the FC and by his fleet. Thier ability, and his expierence/nerve, and just alittle luck.

    This is a problem that plagues all gangs and fleet, "the other gang is out in thier "leet" comp we better not chance it... " that IMO is a huge problem in countering another fleet in any capacity. Your not accounting for the other gang, mistakes they could make, things you may not be aware of and variables you havent accounted for. TO ME that is the single most important part of the equation or really the biggest answer to the question what can you counter a tornado fleet with.


    Are you willing to try?


    Now you can say how is this relevant, or well after this thread we KNOW how to defeat them! SO NOW WE CAN. I say I don't believe that yet, and I want you to prove me wrong. If it was merely not being specific on the tactics why is it there are so many "obvious" counters to the Tornado fleets present in this thread and no one has tried ANY of them on a tornado fleet, especially against us? Agony says they have.. I admire they tried it and were successful against the PIZZA gang! Awesome! It shows the tactic isnt fullproof.. but why the other night did they not try against Rote? Numbers were close enough that I think Agony had a real shot. Now you can say what you want, but if Im wrong and Mindset/targeted enemy is NOT as big a factor as i think it is.. then Agony would have fought Rote the other night in S-U. Thats definitly not a jab at Agony, thier "Tweed" gang seems well thought out and effective. I trust in thier ability to fly it and fight other gangs even at a disadvantage. But there is alot to this from a Psychological aspect, the fact we feel we have to gimp ourselves with Welp fleets/no logi or like Rooks and Kings. Maldor is Brilliant and his fleets are highly effective, that thought alone scares enough FCs into avoiding them that NO one is ever going to truely know what can counter it or even wether thier fleet is really that good. Ninja's attemped and 6 bil Bhaalgorn down.

    So Ruri you said I hijacked, I really just think I asked the deeper question and maybe hit at the strongest problem associated with Tornado fleets. Rote flies them.. they are good at them.. does that impact your ability or desire to fight against it. Nough said.. *pant*

  13. #33
    glepp's Avatar
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    To answer andersons question, since it is well thought out and deserves a reply: at least from my prespective:

    There is a huge difference between the gang we took on PIZZA with and the gang you faced in S-U. First of all, we had numbers around 25 against Pizza, who were brave and decided to face us with about 20 people in total, half of them in thrashers. Kudos to them for engaging. In S-U, i believe there were 5 Deimoses and a Muninn against your 20-30 man Tornado gang. Secondly, our fleet against PIZZA had a Proteus and two webbing Lokis, meaning we actually had a chance to catch kiters without relying on scrams. Thirdly, the fight against Pizza was at gates, leaving us with a GTFO ability should things go sour. Yeah, we know that you guys have more experience with the gang, but the reason the fight was declined in S-U (without me being there) was primarily about the two gang comps, not psychology. Sadly, your US TZ is bigger than ours, while our EU TZ is the same to yours. Like i said in my previous comment, if the opposing Alphanado gang has enough Alpha to kill you while chasing or regardless of how many you tackle on a gate, then there really is no point to engaging, now is there? At least against an opponent that you know knows how to fly these gangs.

    Against PIZZA, they were reforming and we were setting up for round two with a better lineup for them, numbers wise, but then we had the misfortune of accidentallying their bonus Loki, so no fight for us. I won't mind testing Tweed against Alphanados, but I won't take the fight unless I think we can win it. My decision to take the fight depends more on getting favorable terms in the form of positioning and fleet comps than whether we are fighting Rote, someone totally bad or someone unknown. We don't really care who you are as long as we're reasonably sure we won't get hotdropped to death.
    Last edited by glepp; February 3 2012 at 06:28:44 PM.

  14. #34
    ROX Genghis's Avatar
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    I think I can address the issue of the non-fight in S-U. It was essentially the same matchup (in both fleet comps and numbers) as another fight we'd had with Rote a few days earlier: http://www.rotekapelle.com/killboard...d&kll_id=65605. In that earlier engagement, we couldn't catch any Tornadoes, but the Tornadoes were able to alpha our ships, so we were forced to jump out. Brent even acknowledged the mismatch at the time, saying in local "hold on, we'll come back with something you can fight." Which was pretty cool of him.

    So, when we had a similar situation in S-U, I think our FC realized it wouldn't even be a goodfight, just a slaughter. I've seen Bamar leeroy us into Rote in the past for goodfights (http://www.rotekapelle.com/killboard...d&kll_id=59081) and I know he's not very risk-averse, so he must have thought it was a pretty bad situation. In fact, he was right: it was worse than the earlier fight because it was not on a gate (so we couldn't deaggro and jump out), but rather on a Rote shield repping carrier (so even if we could catch a Tornado, we couldn't have killed it). I think nobody in their right mind would have taken that fight. But I understand how it looked from Rote's POV: with Agony as just one of three forces in the system, they probably felt pretty outnumbered.

  15. #35
    AndersonW's Avatar
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    Thanks glepp, no matter what I say in local I have alot of respect for anyone who works on being proficent at a fleet comp. And I love the diemos.

    And yeah Brent is pretty win imo.

    What about a Lachesis, I know armor , but either that or some Diemos with some damps to take enough of the Tornados out of the fight you eliminate enough Alpha that you can rep through it?
    Last edited by AndersonW; February 3 2012 at 07:30:43 PM.

  16. #36
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
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    why is it there are so many "obvious" counters to the Tornado fleets present in this thread and no one has tried ANY of them on a tornado fleet
    what?

    and why lachesis when the arazu has the extra low o_O
    Last edited by Shiodome; February 3 2012 at 07:45:13 PM.

  17. #37
    AndersonW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    why is it there are so many "obvious" counters to the Tornado fleets present in this thread and no one has tried ANY of them on a tornado fleet
    what?

    and why lachesis when the arazu has the extra low o_O

    OK well then if you wanna try the Arazu.. But the Lach has more mids for mOAR damps.

  18. #38
    glepp's Avatar
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    Personally, I'd rather find another gang to fight than gimp my setup to be able to counter one particular gang type. If you need tracks or damps, bring a couple of Ishtars instead of Arazus. More tank and they actually deal damage.

  19. #39
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    The whole idea was that you don't need specific counters to win against Tornados, you just need to not be a gimmick setup and use good space tactics.

    "Winning" spans many conditions from simply not letting the enemy get kills to keeping them out of a particular system to completely destroying every ship and their pods. In order to kill Tornados you need to meet a few criteria, but there are even more ways to drive them off.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot
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  20. #40
    Bacchanalian's Avatar
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    m8s Tornados are uncounterable and everyone who flies and expect anyone to fight them ever are idiots.

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