Broke this out from the W&P forum because it really doesn't belong there and we've shit up the Syndicate thread enough already.Originally Posted by ROX Genghis
I dunno. We're talking equal numbers here, right? Destroyers, AFs, and Rifters do well close up but Tornados could just starburst and pop them from range. Nano, Maelstroms, sniper HACs, and proper sniping T3s won't be able to hold the Tornados down so they can just disengage. And bombers, well, sure, catch anything with its pants down and bombers are a counter, but against small gangs usually not.
Bombers. Destroyers. AFs. Sniper HACs. Proper sniping Tr3s. Old fashioned nano. Maelstroms (or other long range high buffer battleships). Even an equal number of Rifters will win the efficiency battle with consumate ease, and take enough Tornados down to send that fleet home. Of course much depends on piloting, positioning, fitting excellence etc. But to claim that there's no counter except numbers is just plain false. Armor HACs and welpcanes do not fare well, and since that's apparently the most popular meta in Syndicate at the minute of course Tornados appear overpowered. In all honesty though every time Rote flies a Tornado fleet we move in constant fear of any or all of the above counters, precisely because many of them are cheap and common.
At any rate, let's take this in order. Dessies are relatively slow, but a scram or web on a Tornado will keep it in range for more than long enough to kill it. AFs/Rifters have no excuse for not being as fast as a Tornado, and can easily keep up with them if they do try to burn to range. Also I don't know if you've ever shot at a moving frigate with 1400s, but you should try it sometime for reference.
Nano ships had also goddamn better be able to keep up with them. Vagabond/Cynabal gangs will get hit a bit more, but they also put out more damage so the Tornados die faster while they're in range.
The rest of your concern seems to be that Tornados are good at disengaging, which is true. So are a lot of other fleet comps. The ability to disengage is built into all successful fleet compositions (with varying degrees of success), whether that means orbiting a gate with an afterburner and your logi until you can deaggress and jump, or nano'ing out of a bubble and warping away. As with all PvP you can theorycraft as much as you want on paper, but the performance of your fleet in space will ultimately depend on a) the quality of your pilots and b) the ability of the FC to shape the fight in your favor. Of course you can think up situations where Tornados plink away at shiptype X with impunity, but how likely are you to encounter those exact circumstances during actual combat? And once you have, how likely is it that the enemy FC just sits on his ass and doesn't try to change the parameters of the fight?
tl;dr there are counters to nearly every tactic in space combat, but you need to put pilots in space to make them work. Tornados are no exception.
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for larger tornado gangs have found fast armour HACs to be fine (i.e a armour hac gang running t2 skirmish links), decent skilled deimos's have been fine at running them down killing a few before the rest bail. 
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