French are overpowered imo

[Dogbeast]

Aside from gameplay additions, I'd really wish they would revisit Tank Destroyers.

They are supposed to have guns equal to a tier higher or better and able to engage targets in front with superior firepower. But as it stands same tier heavies, and mediums in some cases, have equal firepower to the TD's only with more HP, agility, and a rotating turret.

The only tier TD's that feel like they are finally true TD's is tier 8, where their gun is upgraded to tier 10 guns and actually is stronger than equivalent tier 8 tanks.

There should be some trade offs for playing a tank without a turret. Having lower HP should not be that trade off.

(Yes, American TD's have turrets until tier 7, and TD's have better camo values but because of WG, it's hard to determine what is good camo vs bad camo on TD's)

[fomalhaut]

If you dig up one of the more recent questions in the Overlord's EU forum Q&A megathread, somebody actually asked a question regarding the same issue, on how would tier 9 TDs be competitive in CWs if there is no plan to add tier 10 TDs from WG. Overlord simply answered, "tank freezing". Not involved in CWs, I assume he was referring to the upcoming feature that would freeze tanks in players' garage once it dies or something to that effect, forgive me if I'm wrong. This, IMHO, is a lousy motivation as it basically "forces" players to play their TDs only when the option of playing top-tier heavies/mediums/artys is unavailable to be played.

In any case, seems WG is currently more interested in adding more variety of TDs rather than looking at the usefulness of the currently existing ones. Whichever brings more players and money for WG I guess.

[MicrosoftSam]

I won't say anything definite before having gone through the Lorraine, but seems to me it shouldn't have the 100mm gun at all. The 90mm already has BEST dmg, BEST penetration (a whopping 36mm better then T-44), to add to the normal list of BEST features like viewrange and speed.

And Batty would still be a way easier grind then the T-54 gunwise, as 90mm DCA 45 already beats LB-1 by a wide margin.


So why the fuck did they give Lorraine a better gun then other nations heavies have? Why isn't it enough it has a revolver attached to the best (arguably) medium gun, the 90mm?

Must not forget, you don't have _any_ other tier8 in-game (aside from the amx 50100, which suffers from the same issue) that takes full damage from an AP (750+hp) 152mm KV round.

In practice, if you play with the highest pen 90 you will notice said gun bounces on most tier8s if you're not careful with your shots and it has a total 1440 damage per 6 rounds (iirc, correct me if wrong).

If you slip up and bounce a shot with the 90mm, the opposing tier8 will kill you in a straight 1v1 situation. And Ty59s/T44s bounce quite a bit btw. If both are full hp, you are unable to kill a tier8 with that gun. I think it has to do with being able to actually be a threat.
If you limit your potential damage to 1440 (using the dca) and it's you vs KT, it's pretty much GG unless the KT is afk.
The only way to win would be to engage, get your damage off, manage to escape with enough hp to reload, come back in and take another shot to unload a second can. The 100mm makes sense at tier8. There's gotta be an advantage somewhere.

From personal experience, the DCA values are not very accurate. There are games where you'll pen straight up anything you come across and other matches where you'll bounce KVs, Tigers... Even M4E6/E8 manage to bounce those alledged 212 pen.

[Brimborium]

I think there is something oddly amusing, with the higher tier French Tanks. Several times, on small maps like "Karelia" or "Mines" i had the following situation: You floor it to the important spots to be there first, but all you can do is stare grimly towards the approaching enemy, since your gun is not loaded yet.
Especially funny, if on Karelia, both teams rush (in let's say AMX 13 90)both teams cannot shoot each other on the flat bit, but once on top of the hill, around the rock, the duel starts, and usually both tanks get hit by enemy arty, as they were ready way before. And they were probably the first enemy to show up on the map.
happened to me twice now on Karelia.
Btw, i unlocked Lorraine now, just need about 1.2 mio.credits to get it.
as to french TD's And SPG's:
TD's with massive Alpha should NOT get an autoloader. TD's exceed their respective Tank tiers either in RoF or Alpha or penetration value.They usually get better camo values, but less HP or Armor thickness to compensate that.
Armor values are almost nonexistent with french tanks already.And better camo? really? Must be Romulan then.
I cannot imagine a way to squeeze them in there in a way so they are not OP, or suck really bad.

The SPG's on the other hand could get a nice 4 Shooter, that takes 80 seconds to load, and shoots in a 10 sec interval. that would make it 4 shots in 2 minutes, Just about where other arties are aswell +/- a few secs.

[Qui Shon]

I won't say anything definite before having gone through the Lorraine, but seems to me it shouldn't have the 100mm gun at all. The 90mm already has BEST dmg, BEST penetration (a whopping 36mm better then T-44), to add to the normal list of BEST features like viewrange and speed.

And Batty would still be a way easier grind then the T-54 gunwise, as 90mm DCA 45 already beats LB-1 by a wide margin.


So why the fuck did they give Lorraine a better gun then other nations heavies have? Why isn't it enough it has a revolver attached to the best (arguably) medium gun, the 90mm?

Must not forget, you don't have _any_ other tier8 in-game (aside from the amx 50100, which suffers from the same issue) that takes full damage from an AP (750+hp) 152mm KV round.

In practice, if you play with the highest pen 90 you will notice said gun bounces on most tier8s if you're not careful with your shots and it has a total 1440 damage per 6 rounds (iirc, correct me if wrong).

If you slip up and bounce a shot with the 90mm, the opposing tier8 will kill you in a straight 1v1 situation. And Ty59s/T44s bounce quite a bit btw. If both are full hp, you are unable to kill a tier8 with that gun. I think it has to do with being able to actually be a threat.
If you limit your potential damage to 1440 (using the dca) and it's you vs KT, it's pretty much GG unless the KT is afk.
The only way to win would be to engage, get your damage off, manage to escape with enough hp to reload, come back in and take another shot to unload a second can. The 100mm makes sense at tier8. There's gotta be an advantage somewhere.

From personal experience, the DCA values are not very accurate. There are games where you'll pen straight up anything you come across and other matches where you'll bounce KVs, Tigers... Even M4E6/E8 manage to bounce those alledged 212 pen.

Dude. Take your tier 8 medium, any, against my KT, and it is goodnight every fucking time for you in 1v1, unless you run away. That isn't bravado, it's how heavy vs medium works. You can do funny stuff vs poor players in especially German heavies, but not vs someone with half a brain. It is ONLY for Lorraine where you people have this warped view of balance that a medium should be able to outright GANK a same tier HEAVY from full health. Not outsmart, outmaneuver, circle, get in potshots, wear it down, but GANK it, even to stand still and trade shots with it, and medium wins. It's a ridiculous notion, contrary to all other medium/heavy differences in game.

T-44 has a bit of armor against lower tiers these days, but Pershing doesn't bounce much. Sure it's got more armor then Lorraine, and gun depression, but it also doesn't have the speed, accuracy, penetration, dmg/shot, nor OVER NINETHOUSAAAAAAAAND DpM burst damage.

In a 1v1 it's trivial for you to avoid getting shot while reloading, since you're also the fastest. In 3v3 you have friends to protect you.

I posted in megathread my 200hp AMX 13 90 vs almost full health E-75. And sure he was a poor player, but if I can do this with 170mm pen 90mm, what could Lorraine do with 212mm penetration 90mm gun?





If I hadn't been so excited it'd have died but I ran out of ammo :-/


As for bouncing on KV's, ALL guns do that, including BL-10 on ISU/O.704.
True Lorraine is more vulnerable to lower tiers then it's competition, but it also has a long list of BEST IN CLASS stats, in ADDITION to burst damage the other tanks can only dream of.

But sure, I admit I don't have the full picture yet, be a couple of weeks until I'll have the experience necessary in it.

[Vortex]

That's actually a bit of a red herring - a Lorraine with the long 90 would, at best, do exactly the same as the 13-90 in that video. It does the same damage, with just a bit more reliable penetration and slightly shorter reload (and enough ammo you could never use it all). That's it. In exchange, you are fucking massive compared to that 13-90, which makes it considerably easier for the E-75 to promptly vaporize you. Given the Lorraine's gun depression issues, I'm not sure you'd be able to so easily track the E-75 as you did with that 13-90 either.

Anyways, its better piloting than I can easily pull off (and I salute your skill o7), but at the same time, the Lorraine doesn't do anything better in that situation as you are implying.

Also, in my experience, pub E-75 drivers are all almost always pants on head retarded :<

[Dogbeast]

I recall reading that if your in a T-54/Type 59 and you face hug a Lorraine, they will not be able to shoot at you due to their lack of gun depression.

C/D?

Any other strategies you guys have noticed that work well against French tanks?

Is it better to shoot the turret vs the hull? And can the high tier French tanks turn in place, or do they require moving forwards/backwards to turn?

I have only gotten up to the AMX M4 1945 for the heavy line, and the AMX 13 75 on the medium/light line. My only encounters with the higher tier stuff tends to be too chaotic to watch closely. And when in platoons, I always forget these questions until after my friends have gone to bed.

[Tordin Varglund]

Well i can tell you from experience that the size of the lorraine does have a few issues like that for instance, i got up behind an E-75, had to go right up his rear to make him stop move.. Result? I could not hit the hull at all so i was stuck aiming for the slowly turning turret which eventually presented an impenetrable target once it got all the way around

Doesnt help that it didnt have enough elevation to hit the copula...

Fuck the lorraine.. its fucking trash.

[Mr Marram]

The way the oscillating turret is constructed means that nearly any shot that hits it will damage or knock the turret out. Happened nearly every game in the Lorraine, less so in the Batchat now but it does still happen.

On the Lorraine, damage the ammo rack and then see the reload time, it doubles to nearly 100s ???

[Tordin Varglund]

Something like that... and you will have to deal with it like every 2-3 games..

[Qui Shon]

That's actually a bit of a red herring - a Lorraine with the long 90 would, at best, do exactly the same as the 13-90 in that video. It does the same damage, with just a bit more reliable penetration and slightly shorter reload (and enough ammo you could never use it all). That's it. In exchange, you are fucking massive compared to that 13-90, which makes it considerably easier for the E-75 to promptly vaporize you. Given the Lorraine's gun depression issues, I'm not sure you'd be able to so easily track the E-75 as you did with that 13-90 either.

Well that'd be enough. More pen means can shoot at greater angles and still penetrate and more ammo to boot means it'd die.

Specifically vs tier 8 heavies 212mm is enough to pen them all from the front without having to hit hatches. T32 still tough though, but machine gun port works for 200mm gun. It's more penetration then VK45A, T32, and all other mediums have.


But I'll stop arguing now until I've driven it.

[Cornucopian]

72% winrate in the AMX 13 75... Fuck YEAH! The french never won so many battles before.

[MicrosoftSam]

long stuff that I couldn't quote to appease the forum deities

Meh, I'll tell you right now I don't agree with your views on mediums. Even if you say you'll outright kill any medium 1v1, 100% of the case and yadayada - the potential is still there. Any tier8 medium has pen/damage to reliably kill heavy tanks if they outplay said tanks. As such and playing the 1390 a lot more than the 50100/120/lorraine, the gun does not compete at higher tiers. Pen values are weird and does not behave as described.

The bounces you speak of are like IS-3 Bounces on a leopard. Far and few between. The bounces I speak of, are every other game. Just play with the DCA45.

I remember reading in the early beta stages that it had been stated that if (Gun Pen > 2*Armorthickness) => Angle is irrelevant. Not sure if this still applies tho, but it sure as hell doesn't apply to the DCA45.

Also, I know you're not arguing anymore and I'm derailing the thread.

OT: ARL44/AMX 13 90 still my favourite french tanks. <3

[Qui Shon]

Meh, I'll tell you right now I don't agree with your views on mediums. Even if you say you'll outright kill any medium 1v1, 100% of the case and yadayada - the potential is still there. Any tier8 medium has pen/damage to reliably kill heavy tanks if they outplay said tanks. As such and playing the 1390 a lot more than the 50100/120/lorraine, the gun does not compete at higher tiers. Pen values are weird and does not behave as described.

The point is, you DON'T have to outplay a heavy in Lorraine. You have MORE PEN and A GAZILLION TIMES THE DPS, and three times the gtfo speed too.
In all other mediums you do have to outplay them, which is what I said. Here it is again:

It is ONLY for Lorraine where you people have this warped view of balance that a medium should be able to outright GANK a same tier HEAVY from full health. Not outsmart, outmaneuver, circle, get in potshots, wear it down, but GANK it, even to stand still and trade shots with it, and medium wins. It's a ridiculous notion, contrary to all other medium/heavy differences in game.

Also people go on about weird pen in lots of tanks, like German section on wot forums is full of 'oooh my 12.8cm has weird pen, it just doesn't work like it should, it has more ghost shells then other guns' etc. Yankee section has the same damn thing on US 120mm. Soviet TD section on BL10 etc.
I've all nations all trees at least partway completed, and no specific gun is out of the norm so far as far as I can tell.

I remember reading in the early beta stages that it had been stated that if (Gun Pen > 2*Armorthickness) => Angle is irrelevant. Not sure if this still applies tho, but it sure as hell doesn't apply to the DCA45.

I haven't heard that, but what they call "Overmatch" is when the CALIBER is three times the armor thickness. But it never worked as some claim that it's auto-pen, at best it's that you don't get autobounce when angle is under 10 or 15 degrees (90 being perpendicular).

OT: ARL44/AMX 13 90 still my favourite french tanks. <3

13 90 is awesome, but I've not quite found the beauty in ARL44. Though 212mm penetration sure sounds nice at tier 6, I'm still with F3 gun at 170mm pen.


I know I can seldom stop arguing about tanks, even if I mean to.

[fomalhaut]

OT: ARL44/AMX 13 90 still my favourite french tanks. <3

13 90 is awesome, but I've not quite found the beauty in ARL44. Though 212mm penetration sure sounds nice at tier 6, I'm still with F3 gun at 170mm pen.

Unlike most other ARL 44 drivers, when I was still grinding for the AMX M4, I actually experienced somewhat better performance with the 105mm than the 90mm DCA45. Probably it's just that when grinding other tier 6 tanks and being put vs. lots of tier 9s and 10s (for the heavies), I tend to refrain from making a shot against them unless I am almost sure it will penetrate.

My gripe is that, sure the 212 pen of DCA 45 is nice, but that pen stat alone won't allow me to play a head-on shootout against the front armors of the various top-tier tanks especially heavies. My armor, especially turret armor, isn't that great or sloped unlike KV-3. 3 seconds aiming time of the gun also won't help in that regard. As such, I found that most of the time I would have to flank and shoot rear and sides anyways, and in that role, the 165 pen from the 105mm is already adequate enough to pen most of the sides and rear. Not to mention, when I do shoot, the rather significant 25% higher alpha of the 105mm is not something that can be ignored by the unsuspecting target.

Of course once I got to AMX M4, the DCA 45 is a better choice than 105mm, as it gets higher RoF bonus increase than the 105mm when installed on AMX M4, not to mention the 212 pen would become rather needed in the slightly higher MM that AMX M4 faces, compared to ARL 44. However, the 105mm would still be the best gun you can mount in AMX M4 for a while because you need tracks and turret to mount the DCA 45.

[Dogbeast]

long stuff that I couldn't quote to appease the forum deities

I remember reading in the early beta stages that it had been stated that if (Gun Pen > 2*Armorthickness) => Angle is irrelevant. Not sure if this still applies tho, but it sure as hell doesn't apply to the DCA45.

This has gotta be false. There have been numerous instances where I have bounced BL-10 (286 avg pen) and equivalent shots on the side of my E-75 (120mm armor). Likewise, I have bounced tier 9+ gun shots on AMX's on the random occassion, so obviously angle still plays a part in a gun's ability to penetrate it.

But back to French tanks:

Can someone list the differences in gun depression/elevation for the canister style tanks? ie AMX 12t, AMX50 100, AMX50B, Batchat, etc.

Which has the most, which has the least?

Should I be engaging french tanks when facing downhill on them, or should I engage with them on the high ground?

Sorry for the many questions, but I'm still trying to get my handle on french tanks and what their subtle differences are to make quick decisions on whether to engage or not engage given the situation I may be in.

[Torashuu]

I remember reading in the early beta stages that it had been stated that if (Gun Pen > 2*Armorthickness) => Angle is irrelevant. Not sure if this still applies tho, but it sure as hell doesn't apply to the DCA45.

I haven't heard that, but what they call "Overmatch" is when the CALIBER is three times the armor thickness. But it never worked as some claim that it's auto-pen, at best it's that you don't get autobounce when angle is under 10 or 15 degrees (90 being perpendicular).

Overmatch, if the penetration of gun is 2* armor thickness angle of incidence is decreased by undisclosed amount.(ie. normalization of the angle towards 90 deg).
If the caliber of gun is 3* armor thickness there is no chance of a ricochet.

For both, unless the angle of incidence is 8 degrees or less.

The only thing they both do is slightly decrease the range of extreme angles at which big guns might start failing.

[Cool09]

The whole "THIS GUN SHOOTS GHOST SHELLS" and "THE PEN VALUES AREN'T RIGHT" gets old.

1. Your round can go anywhere in your aiming reticle. If 1 pixel of your reticle is not filled by the enemy tank, you can miss. Its not a "ghost shell" when your round flies off into the blue sky that is partly in your reticle. Its just a miss.
2. There is almost always a tiny part of the enemy tank in your reticle that is at a very small angle of incidence. If you hit at a very low angle your shot will likely bounce, even if you are firing a 200+ pen gun at <50mm of armor. If above post is correct the overmatch rules don't apply if the angle is under 8 degrees.

I've bounced BL-9 shots off M4 shermans, and had my SU85b bounce a higher tier shell with its 15mm armor.

[Thukker]

Most people don't play with the smoke sprites turned off (or even know it's possible to do) so it's very difficult to actually tell where your shot is going when in sniper, and as such rarely experience that 'shot on the furthest possible pixel in the reticle' phenomenon with any regularity.

The latter is more ignorance/general lack of understanding about game mechanics and/or geometry, so they just get angry when their raw numbers don't add up.

My main gripe with pen/armor is that every tank has a fuckton of weak/strong points that are rather arbitrarily placed or hatches/mg boxes/sight vents/etc which are arbitrarily weak/strong, and that this information is in no way advertised but nonetheless heavily affect how some tanks should be played. I want to shout down half the retards in this game that don't know what cupola is but at the same time why should they? All the game gives you is front/side/rear armor values with no mention to the otherwise, so how can I fault the ignorant?

[Qui Shon]

All the game gives you is front/side/rear armor values with no mention to the otherwise, so how can I fault the ignorant?

Well they had this thing they called the information revolution, which made information rather easy to access for those in possession of a computer and a connection.

Oh, and an inclination to seek it out, of course.