Assault Ships - 4th Bonus

[illusionalsgcty]

So with the winter expansion not including the assault ships rework (at least not initially), I thought there should be some sort of discussion for what bonuses each assault ship needs to become more competitive. With 400dps+ destroyers becoming a reality this winter, Assault ships really need a buff to stay competitive against destroyers, faction frigates and interceptors (I'm looking at you Taranis). Obviously the AFs need their fourth bonus, but they also need a stats buff, and potentially a role bonus or two. There's no reason the AFs should be slower than their t1 hulls, CCP should buff the base velocity of all the assault frigates. In my opinion, 1-1.2km/s is a good baseline for afterburner fits before any bonus to ABs is considered. A 20% bonus to base velocity for Gallente, Amarr and Caldari, and a 10% bonus to base velocity for Minmatar. Regarding the proposed AB bonus: a flat 50% bonus is ridiculous, and would likely lead to 10mn AFs becoming much like the 100mn T3s, except with much lower sig and better agility -- very difficult to catch and kill. A role bonus of 37.5% to ab velocity is fine in my opinion, as I see assault ships being slightly slower than ab combat interceptors using their own afterburners, but slower with micro-warp drives. This also prevents over-sized abs from being faster than micro-warp drives. The idea of a 10% reduction of the effect of webs on assault ships also seems interesting, and should up their survivability quite a bit while still maintaining most of the effect of being dual-webbed.

Here's some ideas for the fourth bonus on each of the AFs and some projected stats: (All ab speeds are t2 1mn abs and without plates)

Hawk: 5% Bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level.
2x BCSII fit goes from 167/192dps to 217.3/255.6dps before implants.
old | new 1mn ab speeds: 341/844/1096m/s | 409.2/1180/1403m/s

Harpy: 7.5% Bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Tracking per level. (Kinda obvious as the blarpy and railharpy already have decent damage output.)
old | new 1mn ab speeds: 330/835/1087m/s | 396/990/1162m/s

Enyo: 5% Bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Rate of Fire per level.
Neutrons + 2x MagStab fit goes from 283/326dps to 378.58/435.233dps (Literally insane, the gallente buff you've all been waiting for.)
OR
10% Bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Falloff per level. (Enyo does awesome damage already, just has problems applying it. Probably the better/more balanced option.)
old | new 1mn ab speeds: 342/860/1119m/s | 410/1021/1199m/s

Ishkur: 10% Bonus to Drone Hitpoints and Damage per level. (Every other t1/t2 drone boat has this bonus, why the fuck not the ishkur?)
Warrior2s: 120.45dps
Hobgoblin2s: 148.5dps
The Ishkur is also the only AF that has a total of 10 slots, let's give it another midslot. This keeps the fitting versatility while still limiting the dps output of it's turrets. (Also a dual web Ishkur or full tackle dp fit would be fantastic)
old | new 1mn ab speeds: 359/888/1153m/s | 430/1242/1478m/s

Jaguar: Remove 10% Small Projectile Turret Optimal Range bonus.
Add 7.5% Bonus to Small Projectile Turret Tracking per level, 10% Bonus to Small Projectile Turret Falloff per level.
Most people completely ignore the optimal range bonus and use the jaguar as a brawler, so flipping the bonus makes sense. In my opinion, the jaguar should have a slightly better base capacitor though. Perhaps a flat 10% increase to base capacitor?
old | new 1mn ab speeds: 446/1052/1354m/s | 490/1340/1587m/s

Wolf: 7.5% Bonus to Small Projectile Turret Tracking per Level.
Minmatar AFs are fairly decent already, and don't need much more of a boost than the speed increases, as they are still around 100-200m/s faster than all the other afs.
old | new 1mn ab speeds: 411/987/1274m/s | 452/1260/1494m/s

Vengeance: 5% Bonus to Rocket Rate of Fire per level, 10% Bonus to Rocket Damage per level.
1x BLAI+BCSII fit goes from 124/146dps to 208/245dps
Still cap stable running an ab and a single SAR, so lower dps is fine. Has more staying power than the hawk.
old | new 1mn ab speeds: 324/818/1064m/s | 388/1144/1364m/s

Retribution: 7.5% Bonus to Small Energy Turret Tracking per Level.
-1 High Slot, +1 Mid Slot
The Retribution is already a fairly good ship with decent damage application across different ranges, just needs a tackle mod, tracking always helps, especially on laser boats.
old | new 1mn ab speeds: 348/874/1137m/s | 417/1039/1220m/s

Discuss?

[Resi]

I don't really like the idea of tracking bonuses and boosting their speed (too much) on Assault Frigates, they shouldn't be made in to master-of-all trade ships like the Dramiel is now.

To me, they're meant to hit hard and have good tanks, while still being able to be exploited by more nimble ships. I know the Enyo has a tracking bonus but it's still able to be exploited by nimbler ships kiting outside of blaster range.

The 4th bonuses will have to be selected very carefully, some of the AF's are excellent as they are now and shouldn't be given anything other than a weak bonus, like the Ishkur or Jaguar, while others, like the Retribution, could do with a complete overhaul.

[Xarthaginian]

The Ishkur is also the only AF that has a total of 10 slots, let's give it another midslot. This keeps the fitting versatility while still limiting the dps output of it's turrets. (Also a dual web Ishkur or full tackle dp fit would be fantastic)

4 mid Ishkur would be WAY WAY WAY Overpowered. Between implants and rigs a MSE, AB Ishkur with DUAL tackle and blasters + 5 bonused light drones (if you include your other new bonus) would make every other AF redundant. It would become a 250-300 DPS, 8.5-9k ehp, naturally resisted, capable of brawling or skirmishing, capable of choosing damage type(therm/exp at least) green god of the spacelanes.

Also, ^^^ I want

[Stormscion]

Role bonus of all assault ships = immune to stasis webs
make afterburners on them optimal way for fitting , i agree they should be tanky ganky but slow frigs.

retributin needs another damage bonus not tracking ... so it is like zealot good at mid range but not op , ofc also mid slot.

[Liptonez]

Role bonus of all assault ships = immune to stasis webs

Yeah after supers and nullifiers we really need more immunity bullshit.

[prometheus]

AB bonus is a god awful idea, and anyone who thinks it's worth endorsing doesn't fly frigates enough to understand how terrible it would be.
Too weak an AB bonus, it's useless. Anything else is overpowered on some level.

I made a document some time ago that I've posted around to spread the ideas.
It was even part of my CSM platform, albeit with less technical detail and statistics.
download or read it here

If the are keeping the current style of AFs, then these are the changes I'd like to see happen.

edit: keep in mind things like hybrid tracking/damage numbers were prior to the current changes in the expansion.

[Frug]

Role bonus of all assault ships = immune to stasis webs

Yeah after supers and nullifiers we really need more immunity bullshit.

So your reason for saying no to this proposal is something about supers?

[Xarthaginian]

Yo Prom, no comment on what you've said here, just something I ment to say to you ages ago. When I was in M.Corp and we were part of MC. we were roaming into Provi and we saw you 200k off a gate. 1 of the guys in TS said " I bet I could burn out there he looks afk ", so I said, "STFU fool, he's pretty good and will keeeeeeeeel you" also you were in some random piece of shit and no point blobbing really, not a bro anyway.

On the way back, we met you again and FC said we were gunna go for ya. I pointed out, you are who you are, and FC had us reroute through KBP to avoid you.

This was about 12 months ago. Also where the fuck is Morel lately?

[Boltorano]

Ishkur: 10% Bonus to Drone Hitpoints and Damage per level. (Every other t1/t2 drone boat has this bonus, why the fuck not the ishkur?)
Warrior2s: 120.45dps
Hobgoblin2s: 148.5dps
The Ishkur is also the only AF that has a total of 10 slots, let's give it another midslot. This keeps the fitting versatility while still limiting the dps output of it's turrets. (Also a dual web Ishkur or full tackle dp fit would be fantastic)
old | new 1mn ab speeds: 359/888/1153m/s | 430/1242/1478m/s

I for one welcome our new 4/10 farming overlords.

[Keorythe]

Veng. and Retri. still fall behind the others even after you changes here. They run into the same issues as Gallent being bloated armor tanks but needing to be very close to use their weapons.

Changes to the Enyo and Ishkur are insane. RoF is too much but with the changes coming to hybrids an optimal range buff wouldn't be OP. The Ishkur is a heavy Dram. and after the incoming Dram. nerf, you might start to see an upswing of these things being flown again.

[Pattern]

LETS GIVE EVERY SHIP THE SAME SLOTS BECAUSE THATS HOW WE BALANCE AMIRITE?

[prometheus]

Yo Prom, no comment on what you've said here, just something I ment to say to you ages ago. When I was in M.Corp and we were part of MC. we were roaming into Provi and we saw you 200k off a gate. 1 of the guys in TS said " I bet I could burn out there he looks afk ", so I said, "STFU fool, he's pretty good and will keeeeeeeeel you" also you were in some random piece of shit and no point blobbing really, not a bro anyway.

On the way back, we met you again and FC said we were gunna go for ya. I pointed out, you are who you are, and FC had us reroute through KBP to avoid you.

This was about 12 months ago. Also where the fuck is Morel lately?

lol.
much of hydra is playing lol/hon/skyrim

[illusionalsgcty]

AB bonus is a god awful idea, and anyone who thinks it's worth endorsing doesn't fly frigates enough to understand how terrible it would be.
Too weak an AB bonus, it's useless. Anything else is overpowered on some level.

I made a document some time ago that I've posted around to spread the ideas.
It was even part of my CSM platform, albeit with less technical detail and statistics.
link

If the are keeping the current style of AFs, then these are the changes I'd like to see happen.

Looks like we had a somewhat similar thought process with a few of the ships. I did consider a 5% drone hitpoint/damage bonus for the ishkur, and that'd probably be a better option than just copying all the other drone boats in the game. I also like the idea of moving the Retribution's fifth low to a mid, better than swapping the high. The explosion velocity bonus on the hawk is also nice, and I had that as an option on my notes at one point. Seeing as rockets are arguably meant to be a more consistent damage application, an explosion velocity bonus makes more sense than RoF. Jaguar changes are great, wish I had thought of that.

The Ishkur is also the only AF that has a total of 10 slots, let's give it another midslot. This keeps the fitting versatility while still limiting the dps output of it's turrets. (Also a dual web Ishkur or full tackle dp fit would be fantastic)

4 mid Ishkur would be WAY WAY WAY Overpowered. Between implants and rigs a MSE, AB Ishkur with DUAL tackle and blasters + 5 bonused light drones (if you include your other new bonus) would make every other AF redundant. It would become a 250-300 DPS, 8.5-9k ehp, naturally resisted, capable of brawling or skirmishing, capable of choosing damage type(therm/exp at least) green god of the spacelanes.

Also, ^^^ I want

You're right, it would be awesome.

Veng. and Retri. still fall behind the others even after you changes here. They run into the same issues as Gallent being bloated armor tanks but needing to be very close to use their weapons.

Changes to the Enyo and Ishkur are insane. RoF is too much but with the changes coming to hybrids an optimal range buff wouldn't be OP. The Ishkur is a heavy Dram. and after the incoming Dram. nerf, you might start to see an upswing of these things being flown again.

I think the enyo with a dual optimal/falloff bonus would be good, the RoF bonus is pretty ridiculous.

Veng. and Ret. still have pretty good tanks, and the Ret. actually does very good damage across a wide spectrum of ranges, I think the tracking bonus should be enough tbh.

[Tarminic]

I think I'd rather see the AF's get some kind of bonus to their defensive capabilities or survivability.

[Grarr Dexx]

The ishkur pays for the extra slot with the drone bay and the fact that it's a super strong assault frigate.

[prometheus]

I think I'd rather see the AF's get some kind of bonus to their defensive capabilities or survivability.

read my pdf

[Resi]

I'm dreading the 4th bonus changes as much as I'm looking forward to them, it seems like a recipe for disaster (a new Dramiel). Just got to hope CCP don't wait two years before doing anything about it.

[Marlona Sky]

I think I'd rather see the AF's get some kind of bonus to their defensive capabilities or survivability.

read my pdf

How about you give a one or two line summary of the pdf of your opinion instead.

[Resi]

I like Prom's 5th bonus idea for a MWD sig reduction. Doesn't really effect frigate warfare but allows them to be fulfil a role in fleet warfare without being insta-popped first.

[prometheus]

Read it, there are lots of little things.
I put the thought into it, the least someone can do is read the whole thing rather than a bastardized tl;dr