[PvP] Vargur

[Baarhyn]

Neuts + webs with a partner sporting neuts + points.

Or you drop the invuln or the mwd for solo and fit a point instead. No-mwd you can fit dual heavy neuts.

You could drop the invuln and change one TE for a DCU.

Point is, except for massed neuts it's basically a maelstrom with a mjd, a buncha neuts, more dps, more projection and Bc speed and manoeuvrability.

It's obscenely good and it can do the maelstrom on gate thing but it can also kite shit around doing more damage than a mach with roughly the same projection and a lil' less speed.

It's by far the most versatile marauder, with same fit it tanks more than a golem and has neuts and speed and more dps.

I'm just sad it doesn't have glowing blue thingies sticking out in bastion like the other ones.

Go check out the videos and killmails of people using Marauders in PvP. Most of them are propless, and those that do have a prop, are running an MJD solely for it's GTFO ability. This isn't by mistake, or because they're stupid, it's because the idea of moving around the field then Bastioning up is more wishful thinking that the scrips in porn. Tournament play not withstanding, for obvious reasons. The power of a Marauder is based almost entirely off of it's Bastion module, use it to its best advantage.

If you go full propless you get a second cap booster and a point.

Or more resist.

So you're giving up gtfo if no scram AND 1500m/s before overheat for more tank ( doesn't need more tank) or more neut resistance ( it's already real resistant and an arma/bhaal will cap you with dual injectors anyway).

I mean in a fit like this it tanks like a maelstrom, moves like a mach, dps more than a mach, neuts more than a mach and has an mjd. It means that you can kite anything with bonused heavy neuts out of bastion and facefuck anything that doesn't have bonused heavy neuts in bastion.

I'll post some eft screenshots when I get back home, this is the penultimate solo battleship/battlecruiser.

Edit: heck, it's a better shield mach without any of the already limited downsides. It does have a tad less speed but that's it.

[Vargur, baar's]

Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800

Bastion Module I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Polycarbon Engine Housing II
Large Polycarbon Engine Housing II

Warrior II x5

You didn't specify rigs, but it's the only way I could get the speed numbers up to what you were talking about. The only way I could make it cap stable was running the nos, heating the booster, and having the X-Type MWD. It's not cap stable running the neuts in any config I could find.

First, don't compare a linked and implanted ship to a unlinked, unimplanted ship. That's Wolf level of retarded. A linked, crystaled T2 fit Cyclone will tank more than a unlinked unimplanted Bastioned Vargur. This isn't complicated, if you've got a collection of force multipliers, ships get much better. Compare ships without links or implants on both.

Machariel:
You are actually significantly slower than a Mach, 1k/1.5k vs 1.7k/2.5k. You don't do 1k DPS, you do 900, and it's not hitting at 60k, it's hitting at 50k; you have the exact same projection as the Mach. If you plan to be mobile, you can't consider your projection while in bastion. Mach actually does the 1k DPS, and has a bigger drone bay to boot. The only advantage in DPS you have over the Mach is slightly better tracking.

Maelstrom:
You tank a 50 DPS than the Mael does when you're out of Bastion, which is fairly negligible. The Vargur does project it's DPS better, but both hulls do the same DPS. Dropping into Bastion obviously skyrockets your tank, but let's be fair here, you're comparing a 300m ISK fit to a 4b ISK fit, it damned well be better in some way.

The Vargur is a great ship, don't get me wrong, but it's not a end all do all hull. The Machariel thing is dumb, because the reason the Mach is such a good ship is it's speed, which the Vargur just doesn't have. If you want to immitate the Mach onto some other hull, the Typhoon FI is a better option than the Vargur.

I'll post my fit since I'm rolling from memory here but the crux of my argument is that you can kite shit outside of bastion and destroy shit in bastion. It does include links since you know, 4b ship, and it does include implants since you know, 4b ship.

We also have to take into account the fact that coasting in/out of bastion is easy considering it's only 60s a pop, you can mjd, bastion, mwd one cycle and mjd again.

I'll do a comprehensive with/without links and implants later, I might be over hyped about it but I feel that ship to be the most versatile boat ive seen in a long time.

[Cue1*]

I'll post my fit since I'm rolling from memory here but the crux of my argument is that you can kite shit outside of bastion and destroy shit in bastion. It does include links since you know, 4b ship, and it does include implants since you know, 4b ship.

We also have to take into account the fact that coasting in/out of bastion is easy considering it's only 60s a pop, you can mjd, bastion, mwd one cycle and mjd again.

I'll do a comprehensive with/without links and implants later, I might be over hyped about it but I feel that ship to be the most versatile boat ive seen in a long time.

We've had this discussion a few hundred times as it is, maybe you should go read those threads instead? It's simple, when you are comparing the stats of a ship, you compare said stats with no implants, no links, no drugs. Why you ask? For the same reason we use an all V character for comparing stats, it's a baseline.

60 seconds is 60 seconds for something with a scram to get in gang, and get to you. You can't coast around in Bastion anymore, it doesn't add mass. All it takes is one ship with a scram to make two of your midslots dead weight.

[Baarhyn]

I'll post my fit since I'm rolling from memory here but the crux of my argument is that you can kite shit outside of bastion and destroy shit in bastion. It does include links since you know, 4b ship, and it does include implants since you know, 4b ship.

We also have to take into account the fact that coasting in/out of bastion is easy considering it's only 60s a pop, you can mjd, bastion, mwd one cycle and mjd again.

I'll do a comprehensive with/without links and implants later, I might be over hyped about it but I feel that ship to be the most versatile boat ive seen in a long time.

We've had this discussion a few hundred times as it is, maybe you should go read those threads instead? It's simple, when you are comparing the stats of a ship, you compare said stats with no implants, no links, no drugs. Why you ask? For the same reason we use an all V character for comparing stats, it's a baseline.

60 seconds is 60 seconds for something with a scram to get in gang, and get to you. You can't coast around in Bastion anymore, it doesn't add mass. All it takes is one ship with a scram to make two of your midslots dead weight.

Heavy neut + med neut + web + scram + drones + 1000dps autocannons.

It's like trying to keep a utility domi tackled, it ain't impossible for sure but it's bitchy at best.

Anyway, I'll be in front of eft in not so long and I'll back what I'm saying a bit.

edit:



So before any kind of implant links pills drones or overheating we can see that:

vargur:

+ bastion mode for redonk tank and ECM immunity
+ med neut (switch for second heavy neut if going only MWD or only MJD for pure/linked solo)
+ a bit more cap stable under prop.
+ can brawl
+ 32.5% tracking
+ can do no web scram and keep dual prop.

Mach:

+ 550 m/s
+ 37 dps

the speed difference can be alleviated with links, you're already solidly in BC speed territory and except for HG snaked mach you ain't getting in cruiser territory.

the damage difference we can argue about since there is a huge tracking bonus on the vargur.

Now this is what i'm talking about:



easily cap stable in bastion

5669/8770 dps tank HG crystals, (still redonkulous with LG crystals, still redonkulous without lol)
1271/1838 m/s out of bastion.

project better than a mach, more tracking, more neuts, can outbrawl right about anything, is ECM immune in bastion, is slippery as fuck between neuts, MWD and MJD.

Under the same pimp, the mach becomes fucking fast (it's roughly fast enough for what it does already) tank become decent at about 1300 dps before implants (1861 with HG crystals)

so what you buy for roughly the same price is:

- ecm immunity when necessary
- abhorrent tank
- brawl potential
- supreme gtfo 1min MJD + extra neut
- extra tracking and falloff
- it's vertical

[Naoru]

Need a web, mate. Otherwise any small sig cruiser with a nos/cap booster will easily slip under your guns. People are pretty clued on to the extreme tank on a Vargur and usually won't engage without 1-2 Geddons on standby.

[Cue1*]

A single cap boosted scram Enyo will still get under your guns, add in one cyno ship who brings in a dread, and you just lost 4b for absolutely nothing.

[Baarhyn]

A single cap boosted scram Enyo will still get under your guns, add in one cyno ship who brings in a dread, and you just lost 4b for absolutely nothing.

That's true for every single ship there is. If that same enyo catch a mach then guess what? It's fucked.

I for one haven't seen many cap boosted enyos around, and if you want to do the mael thing you can flip the scram for a web and honortackle people. (Yes, it does work surprisingly)

Else you can double team with a friend in a rapier or a bhaalgorn if you want to superfancy it.

But really, telling me that it's dumb to pimp a ship cause a dualprop ubertanked tackler might get a perfect orbit instantly and stay capped up/live long enough to drop a second dude with either a cyno + dread +webs or a pair of armageddon kinda proves my point that it's a kickass ship.

You can alternatively plex bait in one where caps cannot enter. Drop a mobile depot if the fabled tackler gets on your ass and refit for dualweb and blap him off the face of the earth.

Very few ships can comfortably do that while being immune to falcons and damps.

[user_31001]

What strikes me is that you're using Cap intensive setups when you know most of the time you'll be neuted dry in a matter of second if anything with neuts is around.

I'm toying with one myself and so far i would certainly go with a dual XLASB setup :

[Vargur, BASTION]
Internal Force Field Array I
'Deuce' Co-Processor I
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer

Gistum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist C-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Gistum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor

Bastion Module I
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb
'Vrykolakas' Heavy Nosferatu I
Dark Blood Heavy Energy Neutralizer

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

Your tank is mostly capless and you can cycle your 12 sec nos cycle to land right before your hardener cycle, your boosters are 100% capless and even in the event you would get neuted dry you would still pump out 2233 tank on a single XLASB against 1490 on a Gist X-Type XLSB, which would still require cap to activate, if you can't activate your hardener, there's a good chance you cant' activate the booster either.

If you drop one of the invul to fit either a MWD or MJD you're still looking at 4299 damage tanked on one heated XLASB vs 2709 for your setup (heated single hardener on both).

Toss perfect link, HG snake & strong blue pill and you're looking at 24521 Damage tanked on a lone heated XLASB, 48K tanked with both but then you'll probably over rep to oblivion because you'll be boosting 7k4 shield per cycle and you only have 9k to start with. With a resist profile around 90% everywhere you could think about tanking one dread, two if you're godlike at managing your boosters.

Your idea of using it as a kind of well tanked Machariel is interesting but i think that you're never going to be able to use bastion mode without getting into cap trouble, if i where to follow your idea i would probably do something like this instead :

[Vargur, baar's]
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
'Deuce' Co-Processor I

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800

Bastion Module I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Polycarbon Engine Housing II
Large Polycarbon Engine Housing II

Warrior II x5

And then you can either toss away the cap booster to fit your MJD and replace either the Smartbomb or heavy neut by a heavy nos, or keep it and use it to run your hardener & your GTFO ability.

That's only my opinion but i would totally bring neuts against a Marauder and your setup would really hate that.

[QuackBot]

Need a web, mate. Otherwise any small sig cruiser with a nos/cap booster will easily slip under your guns. People are pretty clued on to the extreme tank on a Vargur and usually won't engage without 1-2 Geddons on standby.

Doesn't need any more of your fixing.

[Cue1*]

That's true for every single ship there is. If that same enyo catch a mach then guess what? It's fucked.

Except the Mach doesn't pin itself in place for 60 seconds.

I for one haven't seen many cap boosted enyos around

I have an enyo and a cap booster in my hanger. And I've got 60 seconds to get there. I feel certain I can make time to refit for a booster.

But really, telling me that it's dumb to pimp a ship cause a dualprop ubertanked tackler might get a perfect orbit instantly and stay capped up/live long enough to drop a second dude with either a cyno + dread +webs or a pair of armageddon kinda proves my point that it's a kickass ship.

I said nothing of the fucking sort. Scroll up, check out my fit. Notice that it too is pimped? I'm telling you to pick a roll, and go do that, not trying to do both.

There are no webs needs to kill a Vargur in Bastion with a dread. You aren't moving, no tracking to be had.

Very few ships can comfortably do that while being immune to falcons and damps.

But once again, only immune in Bastion, which brings us back to the whole Marauders don't need an MWD.

[Sparkus Volundar]

I'm pretty sure even Wolf wouldn't assume a Mach would be linkless. Plus, BC-speed hasn't been much since the T1 cruiser buff. Add in stop-start with Bastion and some turns and you won't manage 1500 much as well as keep point.

[SardCaid]

Alternatively, if you think your fit has merit, go fly around with it for a while and report back with how it works. Who gives a fuck what people say here if your experience on TQ tells a different story.

I will add that the Vargur is not exceptionally fast; it's probably as fast or slower than a Tempest with double nanos. The Machariel is so effective because it has 300+ m/s on most other nano BS without heat on its MWD : you cruise around at cruiser speeds with a HG snake set. Thus, expect to get pinned early, and work on your assumptions from there.

Lastly, when I fly BS I either have an ascendency set in my head or two warp speed rigs. Ask yourself if you can afford to give up your rigs on a Vargur, or an implant set, versus the Mach that can get away with either sacrifices and still be very effective at nanoing.

[Ophichius]

I'm pretty sure even Wolf wouldn't assume a Mach would be linkless. Plus, BC-speed hasn't been much since the T1 cruiser buff. Add in stop-start with Bastion and some turns and you won't manage 1500 much as well as keep point.

You've got that backwards. Wolf assumes everything down to and including T1 shitfit frigates should have links and HG pirate implants.

-O

[Cue1*]

Damnit, O beat me to it.

[Cosmin]

Why fit 4b to a ship when a Paladin has a lot better damage projection and can be fitted with dual heavy injectors, dual LAR and heavy neuts/large smarties for less than half the price? Sure, you don't get all those fancy numbers and a geddon will still neut you out to 38km, but when your Scorch optimal is around 70... Plus, the Vargur has huge CPU problems and forces you to use very expensive invuls, one of the reasons I've came to actually hate shield tanking in the first place.

I get the whole capless thing and stuff but I don't understand the Machariel comparison. Different ships and vastly different MOs imho, genuinely curious if somebody explains in detail why the two should even be compared in the first place*.

*I wouldn't take a Machariel out solo since I've never won AT

[Baarhyn]

Why fit 4b to a ship when a Paladin has a lot better damage projection and can be fitted with dual heavy injectors, dual LAR and heavy neuts/large smarties for less than half the price? Sure, you don't get all those fancy numbers and a geddon will still neut you out to 38km, but when your Scorch optimal is around 70... Plus, the Vargur has huge CPU problems and forces you to use very expensive invuls, one of the reasons I've came to actually hate shield tanking in the first place.

I get the whole capless thing and stuff but I don't understand the Machariel comparison. Different ships and vastly different MOs imho, genuinely curious if somebody explains in detail why the two should even be compared in the first place*.

*I wouldn't take a Machariel out solo since I've never won AT

Well the comparison stem from the vargur essentially being a tad slower mach out of bastion.

You get a bit more tank, less speed while still being supa fast for a battleship, the same damage and projection but more tracking, more neuts and utility, a mjd in my setup.

BUT

You also get bastion, if the situation ask for it you can turn yourself into an unkillable turret with 1k capless dps that can't be ecm'd off the field.

So except for the speed difference, it a mach + a mael with mjd and an extra smartbomb/heavy neut + medium neut/nos.

I mean you can go cheaper if you want, a pithum c invul is roughly half the price, a gist c-type xl is also alot cheaper and they should fit easy. The rest is pretty standard for pirate battleships really, but you can pimp it a lot less for a correspondant decrease in specs.

And so the comparison comes from there.

[SardCaid]

Baar, I think your Vargur is trying to do too much, especially considering you're talking about flying it in a gang format.

Using both MJD and MWD on a shield tank means that you're sacrificing an extra cap booster, making you very vulnerably to neut pressure. Unlike the Mach, you don't go 1.6 km/s unheated, the Vargur flies at 1.0 km/s without nanos, implants or links. Frankly, the Vargur doesn't have the speed to really pull of BS nanoing like a Mach can.

Another thing to consider is that the armor nano Mach can actually pull off MJD, MWD, point, web with a cap booster, has a heavy neut, still flies at 1.6 km/s w/out heat and pimping, at the cost of of DPS and projection. Trying to do similar with a shield fit (your focus on MWD/MJD with the Vargur) takes up too many midslots, especially with the addition of tackle in the webifier.

Blow isk as you'd like, or try to EFT warrior your point that it can work, but I'm still of the opinion from flying a mobile marauder that as you have on paper your fit is not going to last long on TQ.

[Cosmin]

Why fit 4b to a ship when a Paladin has a lot better damage projection and can be fitted with dual heavy injectors, dual LAR and heavy neuts/large smarties for less than half the price? Sure, you don't get all those fancy numbers and a geddon will still neut you out to 38km, but when your Scorch optimal is around 70... Plus, the Vargur has huge CPU problems and forces you to use very expensive invuls, one of the reasons I've came to actually hate shield tanking in the first place.

I get the whole capless thing and stuff but I don't understand the Machariel comparison. Different ships and vastly different MOs imho, genuinely curious if somebody explains in detail why the two should even be compared in the first place*.

*I wouldn't take a Machariel out solo since I've never won AT

Well the comparison stem from the vargur essentially being a tad slower mach out of bastion.

You get a bit more tank, less speed while still being supa fast for a battleship, the same damage and projection but more tracking, more neuts and utility, a mjd in my setup.

BUT

You also get bastion, if the situation ask for it you can turn yourself into an unkillable turret with 1k capless dps that can't be ecm'd off the field.

So except for the speed difference, it a mach + a mael with mjd and an extra smartbomb/heavy neut + medium neut/nos.

I mean you can go cheaper if you want, a pithum c invul is roughly half the price, a gist c-type xl is also alot cheaper and they should fit easy. The rest is pretty standard for pirate battleships really, but you can pimp it a lot less for a correspondant decrease in specs.

And so the comparison comes from there.

I have to agree with the previous posters that the Vargur isn't really a "tad" slower than the Mach, but much slower. You also have different flight styles imho and also Marauders nowadays don't get engaged almost at all, I've flown a Kronos through 8 nullsec jumps and only dude who engaged was a Vagabond who decided to bugger off after I shot him twice

Have to agree also with the immense utility the Vargur brings, but it's also very difficult to fit without a lot of bling, something that isn't really the same with the Mach, with decent pimp you could squeeze two Machariels in those 4b that a Vargur costs. Obviously I'm also armour-biased and I'm an advocate for armour tanking the Mach (not the Cynabal, though).

Indeed you could argue that there's a minimum pimp that should go on a pirate battleship, I'd argue here that having two ships fully fitted instead of one might be better, it depends how spacerich you are and how risk adverse you feel one evening. Personally I'd rather pimp fit a Vindicator instead of either the aforementioned simply because it's a lot of fun to fly and brings a lot of utility, but this is true when you fly it in a fleet, not solo.

For solo battleships to be perfectly honest (also imho), the age has kind of dawned. When you're warping with 2AU/s and it takes you ages to reach that speed, basically anything can land on your destination grid before you. I fondly remember taking a Machariel for a spin around Curse and getting out alive simply because it's so fast to align and warp (I actually had one of my safes probed and ended up 100km from an Ares, that was really a rush), today I'd just be swarmed and exploded without making any victims. Yes, you can get a party started with a Marauder, but in that minute you're engaged you should add another minute for the bastion timer, so basically for a minute out of bastion you are hugging a gate hoping that nobody will get tackle on the other side and the locals are too damn busy ratting to come and whore on your shiny KM.

I read above that people fly solo battleships with warp speed rigs, it's a total blasphemy imho that's necessary

Overall the changes to warp speed relegated the battleships to fleet ops only and made them extremely vulnerable, even more than before.

I'm just discussing this, I apologise for the offtopic.

Also, W0lf, did you try to negrep me or plusrep me, the colour is gray on your comment? Also thanks for the explanation, it's a fair point of view.

[Cue1*]

For solo battleships to be perfectly honest (also imho), the age has kind of dawned. When you're warping with 2AU/s and it takes you ages to reach that speed, basically anything can land on your destination grid before you. I fondly remember taking a Machariel for a spin around Curse and getting out alive simply because it's so fast to align and warp (I actually had one of my safes probed and ended up 100km from an Ares, that was really a rush), today I'd just be swarmed and exploded without making any victims. Yes, you can get a party started with a Marauder, but in that minute you're engaged you should add another minute for the bastion timer, so basically for a minute out of bastion you are hugging a gate hoping that nobody will get tackle on the other side and the locals are too damn busy ratting to come and whore on your shiny KM.

I read above that people fly solo battleships with warp speed rigs, it's a total blasphemy imho that's necessary

Overall the changes to warp speed relegated the battleships to fleet ops only and made them extremely vulnerable, even more than before.

I'm just discussing this, I apologise for the offtopic.

I think that battleships still have a micro-small gang use, but only in what most people will think of as a bad place to use battleships, and that's WH space. Especially in lower class WHs where there aren't caps to alpha you. Fleet sizes tend to be pretty small in that space, so you can engage 4 to 10 when those 10 are usually in T3s instead of the battleships you brought.

Also, W0lf, did you try to negrep me or plusrep me, the colour is gray on your comment? Also thanks for the explanation, it's a fair point of view.

If it's grey it's negrep I think. It being W0lf backs that argument up.

[OrangeAfroMan]

Attracted to this ship (though I wish they'd fix the fucking cockpit texture), looks like the most flexibile general PVP Marauder.

[Vargur, Vargur - d425mm]
Internal Force Field Array I
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Heavy 'Brave' Capacitor Booster
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster

Dual 425mm AutoCannon II
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II
Dual 425mm AutoCannon II
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Bastion Module I

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II


Hammerhead II x5
Acolyte II x5

Barrage L x2000
Republic Fleet EMP L x2000
Republic Fleet Fusion L x2000
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L x2000
Nanite Repair Paste x200
Navy Cap Booster 800 x39

Tanks a lot more than the comparable single rep Kronos, has an MWD, two heavy neuts, selectable damage types, etc. No web, also an empty high slot () but otherwise looks good. Thoughts?

[Duos]

dual xlasb ftw

what is this garbage