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Thread: CSM statement on Arnar's blog

  1. #1

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    CSM statement on Arnar's blog

    [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13622]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13622[url] Please go here, Trebor wants to collect the most likes on the eve-o forums. Reposted here for those that hate eve-o or are unsubbed, or whatever:

    While CSM is pleased that CCP is refocusing their development efforts, we have grave concerns about how CCP development will be reprioritized.

    The following is our statement of position. If you agree with it, please both "like" this post and reply in this thread with a "+1". To keep the thread clear, please use this companion thread for discussions about this statement.

    The CSM believes that:

    * CCP should significantly increase the development resources being dedicated to Flying-in-Space (FiS).

    * CCP should strongly favor iteration of existing game content over shiny new content.

    * Any new content should be directly related to providing support for iteration of existing content. For example (this is not a proposal, just an example for illustration purposes), an expansion of space could be used to provide opportunities for small sovholding, and materials for new POS structures and manufacturing.

    * The "little things" and Team Gridlock initiatives should receive additional resources.

    * CCP should listen to the wishes of the community, who have repeatedly indicated which issues are most important to them via crowdsourcing.

    It is the strong belief of the CSM that if CCP refocuses their efforts on delivering what the community wants, they will be able to regain the faith and trust of the community, and subscriber numbers will resume their steady growth.

    Sincerely,
    The members of the 6th Council of Stellar Management

    Again, if you are in general agreement with this position statement, please both "like" this post and reply in this thread with a "+1". To keep the thread clear, please use this companion thread for discussions about this statement.

    Also, please forward a link to this post to your friends, corp- and alliance-mates.
    Last edited by two step; September 23 2011 at 04:14:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Donor Rans's Avatar
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    the fuck is wrong with you people? they gave you a new shader for faces and a new font? is there nothing that will make you shut up?

  3. #3
    Leboe's Avatar
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    I like the idea of the CSM making their requests to CCP clear and public, its a shame that any CCP response won't be the same.

  4. #4
    Super Ponerator Global Moderator Evelgrivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leboe View Post
    I like the idea of the CSM making their requests to CCP clear and public, its a shame that any CCP response won't be the same.
    The reason they won't is because what CCP perceives in Arnar's blog isn't the same as what players do.

    The CSM needs to watch CCP very closely here, because what players want and what CCP thinks/feels that players want have proven to be very different things. The popular player interpretation is "We're going to give the players what they want." The CCP interpretation is almost certainly "Players are going to want what we make."
    Last edited by Evelgrivion; September 23 2011 at 04:31:21 PM.

  5. #5
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13622]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13622[url] Please go here, Trebor wants to collect the most likes on the eve-o forums. Reposted here for those that hate eve-o or are unsubbed, or whatever:
    Well, as much as I compliment the intent there, that is REALLY aiming low .... without asking CCP to do something about the structural causes of the mess every time ....

    This they can just fill in without having to skip a beat, with words over time so that the pressure can be taken off and a few small steps along the way - without fundamentally learning lessons or making healthy course corrections :P
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
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  6. #6
    thebomby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    That's not entirely fair Virt. You're asking the CSM to force structural and procedural change on CCP. They are not in a position, certainly not anymore, to do this.

    I think it is a good thing the CSM makes their position clear, and right at the beginning. These are the touchstones the CSM and I think the players as a whole are going to use to evaluate CCP on this, and they all go to their interests. It may not be a high bar that is set, but I don't think this is the time to start demanding procedural and structural changes. There's time for that later.

    Right now all the CSM and the players got was: "watch this space". And it is good that the CSM almost immediately comes back on that with a: "That's fine, we'll watch it alright, but this is what we like to see happening in that space."
    CCP is not in a position to fuck things up right now. If they can turn the ship around, they can go back to derping later, but it's pretty clear that a miss right now might well sink the game.

    Of course that doesn't stop them running full tilt over the edge screaming "Freya's mah beatch!!!!!", but it's up to them now. If they do screw up, well, it was nice while it lasted, and if they do improve things then we can expecta rerun of Player Rage™ as soon as they've finished slapping themselves on their backs and things go south again.
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    Власти, данной Богом, сынок, будь навеки верным...
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  7. #7
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    That's not entirely fair Virt. You're asking the CSM to force structural and procedural change on CCP. They are not in a position, certainly not anymore, to do this.

    I think it is a good thing the CSM makes their position clear, and right at the beginning. These are the touchstones the CSM and I think the players as a whole are going to use to evaluate CCP on this, and they all go to their interests. It may not be a high bar that is set, but I don't think this is the time to start demanding procedural and structural changes. There's time for that later.

    Right now all the CSM and the players got was: "watch this space". And it is good that the CSM almost immediately comes back on that with a: "That's fine, we'll watch it alright, but this is what we like to see happening in that space."
    No, I'm not asking them to do that. I'm merely pointing out that right now there is an enormous opportunity. Not simply for EVE Online with its environment of FiS, and the stabilising of that commercially. But also for the people who work at CCP.

    At the end of the day, a lot can be said about the factors at CCP that cause it to shoot itself in the foot, and the factors that contribute to the weaknesses that continuously threaten to undo their position of luxury in this industry - not to mention the factors that can still allow CCP to be truly different.

    I've mentioned the word "synergy" a lot. In past and presence. And we have to be honest, EVE began because a few people had a dream. It exists because that dream was shared, and carried by both those people starting it and those joining it. The founders, the company, the customers.

    Everything of the past years has compromised that synergy. And when we look back, we can clearly see that when synergy was present both CCP and EVE and Customers and the dream grew. There was shit, there was drama, but there were stories and there was sustainable growth. But every time that synergy fell victim to the syndrome of "team awesome", both the stories and the sustainable growth got shot in the foot.

    Right now, there is an opportunity to put the spotlight on those things that really impair all parties involved, cause and consequence. Something which CCP has never done fully, or even fully honestly. Because they are not capable of it, which is only natural because they are only in their respective trenches looking in the trench - they can neither see the field nor the other trenches. Last year, when CSM5 got very close to doing exactly that, it did have consequences internally. Positions changed, even methods queried, good staff embraced the opportunities on both end.

    But that ended drastically once that spotlight got to core points of that which is called the "team awesome" side of CCP, threatening to show how the internal messaging differed from the reality of events. Even threatening to shed light on the business cultural challenges CCP was never fearless enough to embrace as a challenge. Because some people confused person with position, and felt violated - and in truth in many cases rightly so.

    Make no mistake here. While people often say that CCP is dumb, they aren't. Not at any level, with notable exceptions of nitwits frollicking around with target painters on dreads. The part of CCP that since its start guides the direction in the day to day segregation of those that lead the strategic direction, quite simply embraced the opportunity for the chosen instrument of CSM to limit itself. Reverse social engineering, while withdrawing the limelight from those that were truly responsible, under a guise of socially mitigated interaction for influence up to specific points. How that has ended for those trying to do the right thing in CSM, we have all seen. CCP has de facto taken CSM for a walk, repeatedly.

    But that is beside the point, as there are indications that this CSM is learning several lessons in that regard. Better late than never.

    The trouble of FiS is subject to the trouble of EVE, which is subject to CCP overstretching as a company AND parts of CCP being (willfully, misguided, out of apathy, but also out of honest belief) counterproductive to the evolution of CCP, its customers and its markets together. Which is a de facto requirement for a company like CCP, with the products like those of CCP, to not just exist and financially grow but to truly do what they set out to do. There is no "I" in any team. There is no single side in any business development.

    These current circumstances, provide CCP, its customers, the CSM and its own people an amazing opportunity to reflect properly, and to structurally address fearlessly and transparantly the causes, the consequences, the tasks at hand. The challenge of turning the present into the future.

    Remember that by now infamous post mortem from Star Dock? The current opportunity for all parties involved is to get the required synergy back once again. The consequences of that Star Dock post mortem were incredible, and incredibly positive and rewarding in every way. Now picture that on the scale of CCP and its customers.

    Maybe some people remember the first year of EVE. It was Le Shit. It was horror. A mess. It was amazing that Iceland itself did not blow up without the aid of a volcano. But CCP and Customers were in it together. And this was BEFORE they led themselves astray with shouting "awesome" on every corner.

    Combine these two things. And think for a moment about those who work at CCP. Think for a moment about all the stories that we created. Picture that together. Even the hard road becomes an adventure to share if it is taken together, in honesty, in recognition, in communication and with a shared vision on the dream. Hands on, practical, absolutely. But together, again.


    That is why I am saying that this statement is really aiming low. Because of that golden opportunity to put the spotlight on causes, consequences, challenges and solutions alike. On all sides of where currently there is a fence. A fence put there by that "team awesome" syndrome. A fence which this CSM can take the first step to get rid of, something which those at CCP who can and want to do great works will embrace.

    It's in our interest. It's in their interest. Heck, it is even in the interest of the personality cults involved. All of them. Awesome and grandeur become truly effective and lasting only through work, due diligence, and consistant honesty in communication.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  8. #8
    Super Ponerator Global Moderator Evelgrivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    Lengthy post
    tl;dr: CCP and its players got this far because we all shared EVE Online together, and it all went to hell when people at CCP started segregating themselves from players, as well as the rest of the company. The CSM has wasted a good opportunity by not pointing this out.

  9. #9
    Xiang Jiao's Avatar
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    But players don't do game design...

  10. #10
    noobcake's Avatar
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    OT for a sec...you guys know you can delete the douple posts if no ones posted a reply after it right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    It is called a difference of opinion and if you're going to get so shirty about it, you might want to cancel your connection to the internet.




  11. #11
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    But players don't do game design...
    Game designers are always players first. Where did this meme come from anyways? I forgot.

  12. #12
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Game designers are always players first. Where did this meme come from anyways? I forgot.
    Torfi.

    He was rather insistent on it. Hence why the immediate counter to it became "but you cater to the money of your players". Took a few years for that to become a topic for them I presume.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  13. #13
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    It's not the CSM's job to try and fix the way CCP operates as a company. That's a totally unreasonable expectation to place on 9 unpaid volunteer representatives. It's not even their job to advise on it. The most that could possibly be asked of them is to notice, and perhaps comment on, that there are structural issues with CCP's operation that compromise the CSM's ability to do what is their job.

    At some point, the CSM's mission seems to have been transmuted in many people's minds into "Save CCP from itself". All they're supposed to do is represent player concerns about the EVE, the game, to CCP, the company.

  14. #14
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    It's not the CSM's job to try and fix the way CCP operates as a company. That's a totally unreasonable expectation to place on 9 unpaid volunteer representatives. It's not even their job to advise on it. The most that could possibly be asked of them is to notice, and perhaps comment on, that there are structural issues with CCP's operation that compromise the CSM's ability to do what is their job.

    At some point, the CSM's mission seems to have been transmuted in many people's minds into "Save CCP from itself". All they're supposed to do is represent player concerns about the EVE, the game, to CCP, the company.

  15. #15
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    It's not the CSM's job to try and fix the way CCP operates as a company. That's a totally unreasonable expectation to place on 9 unpaid volunteer representatives. It's not even their job to advise on it. The most that could possibly be asked of them is to notice, and perhaps comment on, that there are structural issues with CCP's operation that compromise the CSM's ability to do what is their job.

    At some point, the CSM's mission seems to have been transmuted in many people's minds into "Save CCP from itself". All they're supposed to do is represent player concerns about the EVE, the game, to CCP, the company.
    Correct, that is CCP's job. But CCP is preventing itself from doing it. Now every time the previous CSM put a spotlight on such hiccups internal, CCP did react to it with changes (yes, at their pace, and with limits, but it showed that it is possible to mirror CCP in the top down doctrine). At the end of it yes, the team awesome side felt its pants had been pulled down too much so they kneejerked into a trench, but up until that point there was progress.

    It's a catch22 there. To achieve something tangible, it requires CCP to change quite a few things. Where do you start really. The approach of bottom up with influence only runs into the same walls of old. The approach of holding them accountable, at least puts the "shit" in visible light, leaving the choice at CCP what to do with it.

    CCP holds CSM accountable, and aims to use it. It is nothing earth shattering if CSM did the same. Mittens was right in the regard that it is a struggle, sofar he's just been struggling with the wrong bunch. Now he's seen the first examples of the stone tablets, and he ain't liking it. For good reason.

    Hence why I'm saying to maintain visibility and transparancy. It holds people accountable, together, constructively. It prevents shady shit from manipulating behind the wall, since its actions find itself being spotlighted. And CCP does respond to that, well even. It's a case here also of this way providing room for the good folks there to get in gear. At CCP, that is only ever really tangible when the rotten shit runs off because there's a bright light shining on it.

    That is not the same as "fixing CCP", only they can ever do that, should they find it necessary and/or rewarding. But since so much for EVE depends on them coasting along with the shit being fine, it is not a bad thing to spotlight the shit. Makes room for the good, or at least gives them a chance. Sure, CCP is up to a certain level in panick mode, but that can either lead to the nitwits pulling off the usual stunts in the background, or people taking a stand together to get things right. I know what I'd choose tbh.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  16. #16
    RoemySchneider's Avatar
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    oh look.. exactly the same items as 1.5years ago

  17. #17
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    How many different ways are we going to say the same thing?

    CCP are assholes.

  18. #18
    Donor Mynxee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Roemy's got a point Virt. All you are saying is the same 'hopeful message' from 1.5 years ago, and here we are, a new CSM basically having to repeat the same wishes/demands from the players again 1.5 years down the road.
    As fun as it is to analyze and discuss CCP, nothing we say here or the CSM says elsewhere-- regardless of how brilliant or radical or informed by relevant experience -- can change the structural problems within CCP. Not even loads of bad PR, mass unsubs or flatlined acquisition of new subs can do it. Sure, those will cause CCP to possibly freak out and flail at solutions in reaction to the surface detail just like always. But to stop repeating these mistakes would require an honest internal assessment of where the obvious skill gaps are and what would be needed to close them. Given that circumstance of investments and friendships preclude personnel changes to accomplish that, the only option left is changing the mindsets and improving the skills of existing personnel. Yet, even if CCP was open to doing that, there is no way they could bootstrap such changes. Outside expertise would be needed to get that ball rolling, and it'd have to be done on many levels within the company since process and mindset changes need to be pervasive to be effective. This seems pretty unlikely to ever happen. Considering exec management's stated agenda ("ultimate sci fi simulator"--which is so much ego-blind bullshit, I don't even--and at least four separate development efforts), things are probably only going to get more complicated and have more failure points as time goes on.

    Considering all that's happened over the last couple of years, it's amazing CCP doesn't seem to see the shitstorms coming from a mile away nor understand why they even occur.



    Sadly, so many of these seem comically apropos.
    Last edited by Mynxee; September 24 2011 at 04:23:01 PM. Reason: added some :words:

  19. #19
    thebomby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    As fun as it is to analyze and discuss CCP, nothing we say here or the CSM says elsewhere-- regardless of how brilliant or radical or informed by relevant experience -- can change the structural problems within CCP. Not even loads of bad PR, mass unsubs or flatlined acquisition of new subs can do it. Sure, those will cause CCP to possibly freak out and flail at solutions in reaction to the surface detail just like always. But to stop repeating these mistakes would require an honest internal assessment of where the obvious skill gaps are and what would be needed to close them. Given that circumstance of investments and friendships preclude personnel changes to accomplish that, the only option left is changing the mindsets and improving the skills of existing personnel. Yet, even if CCP was open to doing that, there is no way they could bootstrap such changes. Outside expertise would be needed to get that ball rolling, and it'd have to be done on many levels within the company since process and mindset changes need to be pervasive to be effective. This seems pretty unlikely to ever happen. Considering exec management's stated agenda ("ultimate sci fi simulator"--which is so much ego-blind bullshit, I don't even--and at least four separate development efforts), things are probably only going to get more complicated and have more failure points as time goes on.

    Considering all that's happened over the last couple of years, it's amazing CCP doesn't seem to see the shitstorms coming from a mile away nor understand why they even occur.



    Sadly, so many of these seem comically apropos.
    Yup, I suspect that you're absolutely right. Making changes to become an efficient, well communicating company from the nepotistic, old boy club that CCP is, is something that probably requires more than CCP is able to give. Normally, it would take a directors board decision to eliminate the problem people and bring in outside help, but since the board is mostly made up of more buddies, I don't think it's going to happen.

    At best, CCP will address some of the worst problems with EVE and when and if subs start climbing again they'll gradually go back to :visions: and their usual shit again, but they simply don't have much time. When (if) Dust launches, all the problems they have are going to be compounded by a factor of more than two (due to admin, management, coordination etc, all things which CCP is really, really, bad at doing). Given how they're responding to this crisis (Arnar calling customers "rabble" is indicative of what they think of their customers), I don't think they would survive the very first crisis with Dust, which is as sure to come as the sun will rise tomorrow. It would be a new game and with customers who have no emotional investment in that game, with plenty of alternatives and a reputation for having far less tolerance than EVE's customers do.

    I think I'm going to resub just to play a few more hours of eve before it potentially fails.
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
    Власти, данной Богом, сынок, будь навеки верным...
    Я люблю Росcию, я - патриот

  20. #20
    RoemySchneider's Avatar
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    actually... i was trolling the CSM with this.
    as i said in the dev blog thread: it is exactly as 'foretold' in the forbidden :18months: verses : they were going to go through with the WiS bollox and after that back to spaceships. CSM did not change that by an inch.
    with CCP moving in this direction anyway, there won't be any credit to claim either vOv

    the chestbeating about the little changes has always been misplaced.... the tiny things were always part of expansions, usually not even listed in the notes - just that now they attached a 'face' to it (bff) and equipped it with an :awesome: devblog.

    so yeah... CSM has produced a lot of paper in the past 1.5 years, and is back to where they started, 'requesting' the very same stuff... again...

    all they can really do to have any sort of impact is dissolve, deliver some 'negative' press that way and prevent CCP from constantly showing off the little petting zoo vOv

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