CSM statement on Arnar's blog

[two step]

[url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13622]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13622[url] Please go here, Trebor wants to collect the most likes on the eve-o forums. Reposted here for those that hate eve-o or are unsubbed, or whatever:

While CSM is pleased that CCP is refocusing their development efforts, we have grave concerns about how CCP development will be reprioritized.

The following is our statement of position. If you agree with it, please both "like" this post and reply in this thread with a "+1". To keep the thread clear, please use this companion thread for discussions about this statement.

The CSM believes that:

* CCP should significantly increase the development resources being dedicated to Flying-in-Space (FiS).

* CCP should strongly favor iteration of existing game content over shiny new content.

* Any new content should be directly related to providing support for iteration of existing content. For example (this is not a proposal, just an example for illustration purposes), an expansion of space could be used to provide opportunities for small sovholding, and materials for new POS structures and manufacturing.

* The "little things" and Team Gridlock initiatives should receive additional resources.

* CCP should listen to the wishes of the community, who have repeatedly indicated which issues are most important to them via crowdsourcing.

It is the strong belief of the CSM that if CCP refocuses their efforts on delivering what the community wants, they will be able to regain the faith and trust of the community, and subscriber numbers will resume their steady growth.

Sincerely,
The members of the 6th Council of Stellar Management

Again, if you are in general agreement with this position statement, please both "like" this post and reply in this thread with a "+1". To keep the thread clear, please use this companion thread for discussions about this statement.

Also, please forward a link to this post to your friends, corp- and alliance-mates.

[Rans]

the fuck is wrong with you people? they gave you a new shader for faces and a new font? is there nothing that will make you shut up?

[Leboe]

I like the idea of the CSM making their requests to CCP clear and public, its a shame that any CCP response won't be the same.

[Evelgrivion]

I like the idea of the CSM making their requests to CCP clear and public, its a shame that any CCP response won't be the same.

The reason they won't is because what CCP perceives in Arnar's blog isn't the same as what players do.

The CSM needs to watch CCP very closely here, because what players want and what CCP thinks/feels that players want have proven to be very different things. The popular player interpretation is "We're going to give the players what they want." The CCP interpretation is almost certainly "Players are going to want what we make."

[Virtuozzo]

[url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13622]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13622[url] Please go here, Trebor wants to collect the most likes on the eve-o forums. Reposted here for those that hate eve-o or are unsubbed, or whatever:

Well, as much as I compliment the intent there, that is REALLY aiming low .... without asking CCP to do something about the structural causes of the mess every time ....

This they can just fill in without having to skip a beat, with words over time so that the pressure can be taken off and a few small steps along the way - without fundamentally learning lessons or making healthy course corrections :P

[Bartholomeus Crane]

Well, as much as I compliment the intent there, that is REALLY aiming low .... without asking CCP to do something about the structural causes of the mess every time ....

This they can just fill in without having to skip a beat, with words over time so that the pressure can be taken off and a few small steps along the way - without fundamentally learning lessons or making healthy course corrections :P

That's not entirely fair Virt. You're asking the CSM to force structural and procedural change on CCP. They are not in a position, certainly not anymore, to do this.

I think it is a good thing the CSM makes their position clear, and right at the beginning. These are the touchstones the CSM and I think the players as a whole are going to use to evaluate CCP on this, and they all go to their interests. It may not be a high bar that is set, but I don't think this is the time to start demanding procedural and structural changes. There's time for that later.

Right now all the CSM and the players got was: "watch this space". And it is good that the CSM almost immediately comes back on that with a: "That's fine, we'll watch it alright, but this is what we like to see happening in that space."

[thebomby]

That's not entirely fair Virt. You're asking the CSM to force structural and procedural change on CCP. They are not in a position, certainly not anymore, to do this.

I think it is a good thing the CSM makes their position clear, and right at the beginning. These are the touchstones the CSM and I think the players as a whole are going to use to evaluate CCP on this, and they all go to their interests. It may not be a high bar that is set, but I don't think this is the time to start demanding procedural and structural changes. There's time for that later.

Right now all the CSM and the players got was: "watch this space". And it is good that the CSM almost immediately comes back on that with a: "That's fine, we'll watch it alright, but this is what we like to see happening in that space."

CCP is not in a position to fuck things up right now. If they can turn the ship around, they can go back to derping later, but it's pretty clear that a miss right now might well sink the game.

Of course that doesn't stop them running full tilt over the edge screaming "Freya's mah beatch!!!!!", but it's up to them now. If they do screw up, well, it was nice while it lasted, and if they do improve things then we can expecta rerun of Player Rage™ as soon as they've finished slapping themselves on their backs and things go south again.

[Virtuozzo]

That's not entirely fair Virt. You're asking the CSM to force structural and procedural change on CCP. They are not in a position, certainly not anymore, to do this.

I think it is a good thing the CSM makes their position clear, and right at the beginning. These are the touchstones the CSM and I think the players as a whole are going to use to evaluate CCP on this, and they all go to their interests. It may not be a high bar that is set, but I don't think this is the time to start demanding procedural and structural changes. There's time for that later.

Right now all the CSM and the players got was: "watch this space". And it is good that the CSM almost immediately comes back on that with a: "That's fine, we'll watch it alright, but this is what we like to see happening in that space."

No, I'm not asking them to do that. I'm merely pointing out that right now there is an enormous opportunity. Not simply for EVE Online with its environment of FiS, and the stabilising of that commercially. But also for the people who work at CCP.

At the end of the day, a lot can be said about the factors at CCP that cause it to shoot itself in the foot, and the factors that contribute to the weaknesses that continuously threaten to undo their position of luxury in this industry - not to mention the factors that can still allow CCP to be truly different.

I've mentioned the word "synergy" a lot. In past and presence. And we have to be honest, EVE began because a few people had a dream. It exists because that dream was shared, and carried by both those people starting it and those joining it. The founders, the company, the customers.

Everything of the past years has compromised that synergy. And when we look back, we can clearly see that when synergy was present both CCP and EVE and Customers and the dream grew. There was shit, there was drama, but there were stories and there was sustainable growth. But every time that synergy fell victim to the syndrome of "team awesome", both the stories and the sustainable growth got shot in the foot.

Right now, there is an opportunity to put the spotlight on those things that really impair all parties involved, cause and consequence. Something which CCP has never done fully, or even fully honestly. Because they are not capable of it, which is only natural because they are only in their respective trenches looking in the trench - they can neither see the field nor the other trenches. Last year, when CSM5 got very close to doing exactly that, it did have consequences internally. Positions changed, even methods queried, good staff embraced the opportunities on both end.

But that ended drastically once that spotlight got to core points of that which is called the "team awesome" side of CCP, threatening to show how the internal messaging differed from the reality of events. Even threatening to shed light on the business cultural challenges CCP was never fearless enough to embrace as a challenge. Because some people confused person with position, and felt violated - and in truth in many cases rightly so.

Make no mistake here. While people often say that CCP is dumb, they aren't. Not at any level, with notable exceptions of nitwits frollicking around with target painters on dreads. The part of CCP that since its start guides the direction in the day to day segregation of those that lead the strategic direction, quite simply embraced the opportunity for the chosen instrument of CSM to limit itself. Reverse social engineering, while withdrawing the limelight from those that were truly responsible, under a guise of socially mitigated interaction for influence up to specific points. How that has ended for those trying to do the right thing in CSM, we have all seen. CCP has de facto taken CSM for a walk, repeatedly.

But that is beside the point, as there are indications that this CSM is learning several lessons in that regard. Better late than never.

The trouble of FiS is subject to the trouble of EVE, which is subject to CCP overstretching as a company AND parts of CCP being (willfully, misguided, out of apathy, but also out of honest belief) counterproductive to the evolution of CCP, its customers and its markets together. Which is a de facto requirement for a company like CCP, with the products like those of CCP, to not just exist and financially grow but to truly do what they set out to do. There is no "I" in any team. There is no single side in any business development.

These current circumstances, provide CCP, its customers, the CSM and its own people an amazing opportunity to reflect properly, and to structurally address fearlessly and transparantly the causes, the consequences, the tasks at hand. The challenge of turning the present into the future.

Remember that by now infamous post mortem from Star Dock? The current opportunity for all parties involved is to get the required synergy back once again. The consequences of that Star Dock post mortem were incredible, and incredibly positive and rewarding in every way. Now picture that on the scale of CCP and its customers.

Maybe some people remember the first year of EVE. It was Le Shit. It was horror. A mess. It was amazing that Iceland itself did not blow up without the aid of a volcano. But CCP and Customers were in it together. And this was BEFORE they led themselves astray with shouting "awesome" on every corner.

Combine these two things. And think for a moment about those who work at CCP. Think for a moment about all the stories that we created. Picture that together. Even the hard road becomes an adventure to share if it is taken together, in honesty, in recognition, in communication and with a shared vision on the dream. Hands on, practical, absolutely. But together, again.


That is why I am saying that this statement is really aiming low. Because of that golden opportunity to put the spotlight on causes, consequences, challenges and solutions alike. On all sides of where currently there is a fence. A fence put there by that "team awesome" syndrome. A fence which this CSM can take the first step to get rid of, something which those at CCP who can and want to do great works will embrace.

It's in our interest. It's in their interest. Heck, it is even in the interest of the personality cults involved. All of them. Awesome and grandeur become truly effective and lasting only through work, due diligence, and consistant honesty in communication.

[Evelgrivion]

Lengthy post

tl;dr: CCP and its players got this far because we all shared EVE Online together, and it all went to hell when people at CCP started segregating themselves from players, as well as the rest of the company. The CSM has wasted a good opportunity by not pointing this out.

[Bartholomeus Crane]

A long post.

Yes, we know Virt, and we know the history as well. That's not the point. I'm looking at Trebor's post now, and although it might be aiming low, I can't think of a way to write all that in there without actually diluting the message. Aiming low, yes maybe, but now is the time to respond to what little is out there and get some ground rules down and get some support for that from the players. I don't see how you can aim higher right now and not confuse the message.

Let's try this another way: how would you write the message that 'aims higher' for Jita Corner? Seriously, try it, see if you can make it work. I admit, I honestly wouldn't know how to do it. There's so much shit to deal with, anything else but dealing with just this limited issue would turn it into a massive and confused hotchpotch which wouldn't work in the end.

Credit where credit is due. Robert's post is fine as it is for what it is. I doubt anyone could do much better. It is clear, concise, there's lot to like for players, and if enough likes are gathered, will send a clear message to CCP about what is expected now. In any case, even if it doesn't 'aim higher', I think CCP will have a tough job living up to this as it is. Why criticise it?

[Xiang Jiao]

But players don't do game design...

[noobcake]

OT for a sec...you guys know you can delete the douple posts if no ones posted a reply after it right?

[Marlona Sky]

But players don't do game design...

Game designers are always players first. Where did this meme come from anyways? I forgot.

[Virtuozzo]

Game designers are always players first. Where did this meme come from anyways? I forgot.

Torfi.

He was rather insistent on it. Hence why the immediate counter to it became "but you cater to the money of your players". Took a few years for that to become a topic for them I presume.

[Malcanis]

It's not the CSM's job to try and fix the way CCP operates as a company. That's a totally unreasonable expectation to place on 9 unpaid volunteer representatives. It's not even their job to advise on it. The most that could possibly be asked of them is to notice, and perhaps comment on, that there are structural issues with CCP's operation that compromise the CSM's ability to do what is their job.

At some point, the CSM's mission seems to have been transmuted in many people's minds into "Save CCP from itself". All they're supposed to do is represent player concerns about the EVE, the game, to CCP, the company.

[Malcanis]

It's not the CSM's job to try and fix the way CCP operates as a company. That's a totally unreasonable expectation to place on 9 unpaid volunteer representatives. It's not even their job to advise on it. The most that could possibly be asked of them is to notice, and perhaps comment on, that there are structural issues with CCP's operation that compromise the CSM's ability to do what is their job.

At some point, the CSM's mission seems to have been transmuted in many people's minds into "Save CCP from itself". All they're supposed to do is represent player concerns about the EVE, the game, to CCP, the company.

[Virtuozzo]

It's not the CSM's job to try and fix the way CCP operates as a company. That's a totally unreasonable expectation to place on 9 unpaid volunteer representatives. It's not even their job to advise on it. The most that could possibly be asked of them is to notice, and perhaps comment on, that there are structural issues with CCP's operation that compromise the CSM's ability to do what is their job.

At some point, the CSM's mission seems to have been transmuted in many people's minds into "Save CCP from itself". All they're supposed to do is represent player concerns about the EVE, the game, to CCP, the company.

Correct, that is CCP's job. But CCP is preventing itself from doing it. Now every time the previous CSM put a spotlight on such hiccups internal, CCP did react to it with changes (yes, at their pace, and with limits, but it showed that it is possible to mirror CCP in the top down doctrine). At the end of it yes, the team awesome side felt its pants had been pulled down too much so they kneejerked into a trench, but up until that point there was progress.

It's a catch22 there. To achieve something tangible, it requires CCP to change quite a few things. Where do you start really. The approach of bottom up with influence only runs into the same walls of old. The approach of holding them accountable, at least puts the "shit" in visible light, leaving the choice at CCP what to do with it.

CCP holds CSM accountable, and aims to use it. It is nothing earth shattering if CSM did the same. Mittens was right in the regard that it is a struggle, sofar he's just been struggling with the wrong bunch. Now he's seen the first examples of the stone tablets, and he ain't liking it. For good reason.

Hence why I'm saying to maintain visibility and transparancy. It holds people accountable, together, constructively. It prevents shady shit from manipulating behind the wall, since its actions find itself being spotlighted. And CCP does respond to that, well even. It's a case here also of this way providing room for the good folks there to get in gear. At CCP, that is only ever really tangible when the rotten shit runs off because there's a bright light shining on it.

That is not the same as "fixing CCP", only they can ever do that, should they find it necessary and/or rewarding. But since so much for EVE depends on them coasting along with the shit being fine, it is not a bad thing to spotlight the shit. Makes room for the good, or at least gives them a chance. Sure, CCP is up to a certain level in panick mode, but that can either lead to the nitwits pulling off the usual stunts in the background, or people taking a stand together to get things right. I know what I'd choose tbh.

[RoemySchneider]

oh look.. exactly the same items as 1.5years ago

[Bartholomeus Crane]

Roemy's got a point Virt. All you are saying is the same 'hopeful message' from 1.5 years ago, and here we are, a new CSM basically having to repeat the same wishes/demands from the players again 1.5 years down the road.

The reality is that in that time CCP did not learn, did not change. Not at their pace and not within limits either. There has been no tangible progress at all in fact. What this shows us is that there is no use in mirroring CCP in whatever top down doctrine whatsoever. The only thing that may, and I do emphasise may have happened is that some at CCP who were open to this anyway picked some of what was said up and then got nowhere with it. The rest just listen politely, or not even show up, forget about it immediately, or, even worse, use some of it in their devblogs as a punchline and then do the exact opposite.

Team Awesome didn't cower in some trench, they just let some other guy, Arnar mostly, run the gauntlet for a while, started a buddy-buddy whisper campaign against everything, including him, and then went on to roll back all changes that may have happened or rendered them useless if that wasn't possible. Right now we're basically back to square one. Even worse actually, because player numbers are way down, the us vs. them mentality is a lot stronger, and everyone not 'on board' is vilified, and paranoia is rife. Nothing was learned and no progress was made. Not really. There's nothing to be 'hopeful' about. What little progress there was has all been destroyed, and shit has only gotten worse. Quite a lot worse.

There's no catch22 here. To achieve anything, hell, get back to where they were, CCP needs to change everything: the way they work, the people they work with, and the mentality they use working with people and their customers. Right now it is the same shit, just a different day. Damn sure the CSM needs to hold CCP accountable. But what use is it if CCP throws everything and the kitchen sink at avoiding accountability, even responsibility to the CSM, and by and large even refuses to acknowledge the CSM as a partner to communicate with? There is no use in cooperation when CCP, as a whole, simply refuses the cooperate.

It was a moronic policy by the CSM to avoid visibility and transparancy, not to push for accountability, and everyone knew it would be. And now even Mittens agrees that that was stupid and moronic, half way into the term. But the idea that any 'grooming' of CCP was, is, or will be successful, seems positively far fetched by now. Ultimately it wasn't a success, certainly isn't successful now, and without a massive and wholesale removal of those 'barriers of obstruction', I don't think it will be successful either. Right now there's just nothing there within CCP to aim higher for or with.

The only thing the CSM can do now is to, transparently and visibly, make the wishes of the players they represent known. Circumventing the NDA, and the rewrite of the minutes for 'tone', by issueing 'open letters' to like or not on Jita's corner does that fine. Hell, throw the results of that type of 'crowd surfing' on a game media website I would say. Get the word out: "This is what the players of EVE want, now it is up to CCP to deliver." Before CCP shits all over it again. That's what the CSM is there for in the end. Then the CSM, with the backing of the players (now fully informed through position statements and 'open letters'), can hold CCP accountable for that. Transparently and visibly. Issue some more open letters of approval or disapproval. If CCP want to make a travesty of the CSM meetings, the minutes, and slap everything under the NDA, fine, avoid it entirely then. All that talk by Mittens of 'having guns behind it' is just bollox again. Again he wasn't actually involved in this, behind the curve again I guess, and he doesn't have any magical clout to throw around anyway. If he had, we'd seen it by now. If anything, he has been constantly arguing in the opposite direction in fact. He's more a drag on the ticket than anything.

"What they do, not what they say". Well, this is a fine way of calling out CCP on what they do and what they need to do. Set the tone of the discussion before it has even started. Kudos I say. No need to aim higher.

[Marlona Sky]

How many different ways are we going to say the same thing?

CCP are assholes.