hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 112 of 316 FirstFirst ... 1262102109110111112113114115122162212 ... LastLast
Results 2,221 to 2,240 of 6312

Thread: The Autism Spiral? (obligatory loluk thread)

  1. #2221
    Donor
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    963
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    You know there are these things called farms and they produce large quantities of food right? They produce so much that the EU pays the farmers to not produce as much as they could. You can also achieve similar on a small scale in your own garden or even a window box if needed.
    I'm exaggerating a little yes. But only a little.

    Last time we had a strike by petrol tanker drivers shops ran out of some foods within a week. In "the road" there's a nuclear winter and people cant grow things, which obviously doesn't apply, but modern agriculture depends on tractors and deliveries traveling long distance. A complete debt cancellation would leave the UK depending on the dregs of the north sea and what it can refine itself, as there would be no trust for trading with other countries. And we'd be in a better position than most.

    Your window box will depend on good compost or plant food, you can do this at home but it's easier if you're not in a city flat. All of these important things would be rationed and the police would be required to enforce it. Which way it goes at that point depends on exactly how short we are and how well the police enforce the law. I wouldn't want to live anywhere heavily populated.

    As to the original question of just canceling all the debt, it's a nice thing to aim for but perhaps we should get there more slowly. Raising the capital required by banks slowly, reducing the value of investments and loans no matter how risk-free they appear, preventing (somehow..) loan backed buyouts forcing normal companies to become semi-financial companies to compete (thanks for the link barth).

  2. #2222
    Qui Shon's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 14, 2011
    Posts
    3,617
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Nonsense. People often put this argument forward in defense of propping up an utterly broken system.
    They also put it forward because they are fascinated, even drawn to such fantasies. Much like certain religious groups are fascinated by and drawn to rapture/eschatology. Which is a connection that amuses me given Barts recent rants on religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    You can also achieve similar on a small scale in your own garden or even a window box if needed.
    During summer perhaps, though window box is a bit of a stretch. Where I live you get one harvest during summer/autumn, then nothing for a very long time. But yeah, food shouldn't be an issue in my country, nor I'd imagine in most developed nations. Even if importing fuel became difficult, and you have no local/national supply, there are plenty of alternative methods available to cover the limited essential needs, like for farming and distribution.
    Last edited by Qui Shon; July 24 2012 at 11:06:05 PM.
    WoT: Mike_Hammer
    Tanks are like Pokemon, gotta collect 'em all.....



    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

  3. #2223

    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    819
    ITT; a Debt jubilee and apocalypse are homonyms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Just for the record, "sending a needy text" is never the right answer.

  4. #2224
    Donor
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    963
    Quote Originally Posted by Qui Shon View Post
    They also put it forward because they are fascinated, even drawn to such fantasies. Much like certain religious groups are fascinated by and drawn to rapture/eschatology. Which is a connection that amuses me given Barts recent rants on religion
    It's a fair point. Perhaps I'm also believing the finance industries hype, that they are so important that everything collapses without them. Perhaps firms would be able to buy fuel as they wouldn't be paying out money in interest. More likely they'd just borrow a load again immediately on a limited term and use that to buy gold to trade for oil. Or something.

    Even if importing fuel became difficult, and you have no local/national supply, there are plenty of alternative methods available to cover the limited essential needs, like for farming and distribution.
    I can't see past forced relocation for the urban poor to rural labour camps. I realise and acknowledge I may be seeing this too bleakly. I have a habit of doing that.

  5. #2225
    Sykes's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 6, 2012
    Location
    Molden Heath
    Posts
    838
    Well, the Cubans coped reasonably well with losing access to shitloads of cheap oil and fertilizers after the collapse of the Soviet Union (google: 'Cuba Special Period' or similar)

    Do we really think that countries like the UK wouldn't do at least as well if they had to, but would instead go full-on Mad Max or North Korea?

    If so, doesn't that suggest something badly wrong with our society and/or system of government?

  6. #2226
    Smuggo's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Behind you
    Posts
    5,409
    I can only assume that some people believe the 24h ASDA down the road is all that's standing between civilisation and barbarism.

  7. #2227
    Maximillian's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,092
    Quote Originally Posted by Sykes View Post
    Well, the Cubans coped reasonably well with losing access to shitloads of cheap oil and fertilizers after the collapse of the Soviet Union (google: 'Cuba Special Period' or similar)

    Do we really think that countries like the UK wouldn't do at least as well if they had to, but would instead go full-on Mad Max or North Korea?

    If so, doesn't that suggest something badly wrong with our society and/or system of government?
    The UK has been unable to feed it population for at least 200 years or more. The best it has achieved is about 90% during that time. The Cuban Special Period is similar to the issues the UK faced during the U-Boat crisis in WWII when, even with great effort and the turning over of parks and gardens to food production, the UK still could not produce enough food (or more specifically calories).

    The best way to see how many people a nation could feed without access to cheap energy is to look at how many people it had at the start of the industrial revolution.

  8. #2228
    Sirial Soulfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Licensed to Ill
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by Sykes View Post
    Well, the Cubans coped reasonably well with losing access to shitloads of cheap oil and fertilizers after the collapse of the Soviet Union (google: 'Cuba Special Period' or similar)

    Do we really think that countries like the UK wouldn't do at least as well if they had to, but would instead go full-on Mad Max or North Korea?

    If so, doesn't that suggest something badly wrong with our society and/or system of government?
    Good point the Russians got through their economic downfall after the fall of the iron curtain reasonably well but mostly because they were already tight communities and people started growing crops in empty parking spaces and such. The western world on the other hand is highly individualistic so in my point of view the west will have a much harder time adjusting to such levels of disparity.

  9. #2229
    balistic void's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 5, 2011
    Location
    Dublin/London
    Posts
    1,828
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirial Soulfly View Post
    Good point the Russians got through their economic downfall after the fall of the iron curtain reasonably well
    Reasonably well from a western point of view or a Russian one!?

  10. #2230
    Sirial Soulfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Licensed to Ill
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by balistic void View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirial Soulfly View Post
    Good point the Russians got through their economic downfall after the fall of the iron curtain reasonably well
    Reasonably well from a western point of view or a Russian one!?
    Well most of them survived as far as I know =0 this guy ex Russian now living in the states has a lot more interesting stuff to say about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Orlov

    In his review of the book, commentator Thom Hartmann writes that Orlov holds that the Soviet Union hit a “soft crash” because centralized planning, housing, agriculture, and transportation left an infrastructure private citizens could co-opt so that no one had to pay rent or go homeless and people showed up for work, even when they were not paid. He writes that Orlov believes the U.S. will have a hard crash, more like Germany’s Weimar Republic of the 1920s.
    Last edited by Sirial Soulfly; July 25 2012 at 10:06:32 AM.

  11. #2231

    Join Date
    August 18, 2011
    Posts
    1,755
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    I can only assume that some people believe the 24h ASDA down the road is all that's standing between civilisation and barbarism.
    Any society is only three meals from anarchy/revolution


    Obviously a financial collapse wouldn't lead to total mad max, but I'm seriously lolling at people suggesting you can live off what you grow in a window box. Tell a subsistence farmer growing enough food to live on is easy.
    Last edited by definatelynotKKassandra; July 25 2012 at 10:31:30 AM.

  12. #2232
    Qui Shon's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 14, 2011
    Posts
    3,617
    Quote Originally Posted by definatelynotKKassandra View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    I can only assume that some people believe the 24h ASDA down the road is all that's standing between civilisation and barbarism.
    Any society is only three meals from anarchy/revolution


    Obviously a financial collapse wouldn't lead to total mad max, but I'm seriously lolling at people suggesting you can live off what you grow in a window box. Tell a subsistence farmer growing enough food to live on is easy.
    Indeed, but even in relatively cold Finland there's enough reserve (though not fully utilized in this time of plenty) agricultural capacity to feed its citizens. Store shelves won't be full obviously, but rationing would make sure nobody starves for a good while. Granted our population density is very low by central European standards.

    We also have coal, nuclear, and various biofuels which should suffice for quite a while if heavy industry exports aren't needed/possible, and of course cut down on "civilian" travel. You can't run a tractor, combine or 18 wheeler on electricity (least with current equipment), but you can make them run on alternative fuels and/or synthesize enough useable fuel.
    WoT: Mike_Hammer
    Tanks are like Pokemon, gotta collect 'em all.....



    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

  13. #2233
    Smuggo's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Behind you
    Posts
    5,409
    Quote Originally Posted by definatelynotKKassandra View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    I can only assume that some people believe the 24h ASDA down the road is all that's standing between civilisation and barbarism.
    Any society is only three meals from anarchy/revolution


    Obviously a financial collapse wouldn't lead to total mad max, but I'm seriously lolling at people suggesting you can live off what you grow in a window box. Tell a subsistence farmer growing enough food to live on is easy.
    I didn't say you can live off it, just that you can grow it. I'm also not saying growing food is easy, but if push comes to shove people will adapt their behaviour to suit the situation. Obviously a collapse of the financial system might mean I can't buy exotic herbs and spices or kiwi fruits at 3am as I can now but that's not the same as there being no food and everyone fighting to the death over a can of beans.

  14. #2234
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    2,812
    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    ITT; a Debt jubilee and apocalypse are homonyms.
    This TBH, but probably not in the way you think.

    The questions wasn't a debt jubilee, not even one or two countries defaulting on their sovereign debt. The question was what would happen when all countries defaulted on their sovereign debt at the same time.

    Well, what would happen is total financial and economical collapse. Banks would immediately collapse as in one go their most stable assets would be wiped from the balance sheet. Bank runs would be immediate and pretty brutal with only a percentage of the money available to be paid out. Not that it'll matter, as the value of the money is based on the sovereign debt as well, so money would very quickly become worthless, basically instant rampant and destructive inflation. All economic activity would quite quickly cease as well, as factories and the like have nothing to pay their worker with, resources will run out and no longer supplied. Same with the transportation system. The governments would be unable to issue new debt either as no one would buy it and all trust or confidence is gone.

    The breakdown of society as we know it would take some time, but soon the masses in the cities without food would start to starve, while the countryside would be unable to service their land without fuel and supplies of seeds, fertiliser, feed, etc. and revert to small scale subsistence farming over a longer period. And with starvation setting in you'll get riots and a breakdown of government control (can't pay the coppers, so why would they keep risking their necks). And what would happen then is anyone's guess; chaos, totalitarian regime, anarchy, all of the above?

    In short, all governments defaulting on their sovereign debt leads to a doomsday scenario, so it is good that will never ever happen. If push comes to shove, all governments can always print money and have inflation burn off their debt obligations. And if just one or two countries default, this will not lead to the 'apocalypse', just look at Russia and Argentina. Tough? Yes. Total collapse of soceity? No.

    As for the idea of a debt jubilee. Actually I think 'quantitative easing for the people' is a pretty good idea. Not only will that not lead to 'Mad Max', I think something along those lines could actually help us out of this mess a lot quicker. Ofcourse it'll kill off or shrink quite a number of those big banks, but frankly, by now they deserve and probably will fall anyway ...

    Anyway, the problem is insolvency.

    Here, watch Santelli rant well and proper about insolvency, and how the US isn't safe either:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/santel...lem-insolvency

  15. #2235
    Donor
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    3,552
    Shock 0.7% fall in UK GDP deepens double-dip recession
    GDP figures for second quarter from Office for National Statistics surprise City analysts who had expected a 0.2% drop


    Britain's gloomy economic output was compounded by shock GDP figures showing a 0.7% fall for the second quarter, 0.8% lower than in the same three months of 2011. Photograph: Peter Macdiarmid/Getty Images
    Britain's economic output collapsed by 0.7% in the second quarter of 2012 as the country's double-dip recession extended into a third quarter.

    Across-the-board weakness in manufacturing and construction coupled with the loss of output caused by the extra bank holiday to mark the Queen's diamond jubilee were responsible for the setback, according to data from the Office for National Statistics.

    Analysts in the City had expected a 0.2% drop in gross domestic product in the three months to June and were stunned by the scale of the fall in activity. The decline followed the 0.3% fall in the first three months of 2012 and a 0.4% decline in the final quarter of 2011.

    Construction output dropped by 5.2% between the first and second quarters of 2012, with industrial production falling by 1.3% and service sector output by 0.1%

    The first double-dip recession since the mid-1970s – when the UK was beset by high inflation and rising unemployment – meant GDP in the second quarter of 2012 was 0.8% lower than in the same three months of 2011.

    Officials at the ONS said it was hard to assess the full impact of June's additional public holiday on GDP in the second quarter, but officials expect a bounce back from the loss of production in the third quarter, when the London Olympics should also provide a boost to activity.

    The news will come as a fresh blow to the chancellor, George Osborne, whose deficit reduction plans have been thrown off course by the poor performance of the economy. Output has declined in five of the last seven quarters.

    Osborne said: "We all know the country has deep-rooted economic problems and these disappointing figures confirm that.

    "We're dealing with our debts at home and the debt crisis abroad. We've made progress over the last two years in cutting the deficit by 25% and businesses have created over 800,000 new jobs.

    "But given what's happening in the world we need a relentless focus on the economy and recent announcements on infrastructure and lending show that's exactly what we're doing."

    The data shocked City analysts. Howard Archer of IHS Global Insight said the figures were "a very nasty surprise indeed". And Labour were swift to criticise the chancellor. Rachel Reeves, the shadow chief secretary to the Treasury, tweeted that the 0.7% contraction was a "disastrous verdict on George Osborne's failed plan".
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...-dip-recession
    Last edited by Pattern; July 25 2012 at 01:38:46 PM.

  16. #2236
    Maximillian's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,092
    The only person who every used the term "debt jubillee" who wasn't dancing in his own shit with his pant's on his head insane was David Graeber and his feeble copout at the end of Debt: the first 5000 years explained just why the occupy movement was going to vanish up it's own arse.

    A debt jubilee solves nothing, rewards the worst of the "bad actors" like megacorps swamped in debt from mergers and takeovers and pathetic governments with greedy stupid voters. So you wipe out the savers - mostly in the developing world - and achieve nothing. Because guess what? After every debt jubileee you merely get more debt, just this time with loan-shark interest rates to cover the risk of another jubillee.

    The whole jubilee issue is as inane and dumb-ignorant scary as the gold standard idiots.

  17. #2237
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Posts
    7,714
    Agreed

  18. #2238
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    2,812
    How evil is this? At a time when two-thirds of US homeowners are drowning in mortgage debt and the American dream has crashed for tens of millions more, Sanford Weill, the banker most responsible for the nation’s economic collapse, has been elected to the American Academy of Arts & Sciences.

    So much for the academy’s proclaimed “230-plus year history of recognizing some of the world’s most accomplished scholars, scientists, writers, artists, and civic, corporate, and philanthropic leaders.” George Washington, Ralph Waldo Emerson and Albert Einstein must be rolling in their graves at the news that Weill, “philanthropist and retired Citigroup Chairman,” has joined their ranks.

    Weill is the Wall Street hustler who led the successful lobbying to reverse the Glass-Steagall law, which long had been a barrier between investment and commercial banks. That 1999 reversal permitted the merger of Travelers and Citibank, thereby creating Citigroup as the largest of the “too big to fail” banks eventually bailed out by taxpayers. Weill was instrumental in getting then-President Bill Clinton to sign off on the Republican-sponsored legislation that upended the sensible restraints on finance capital that had worked splendidly since the Great Depression.

    Those restrictions were initially flouted when Weill, then CEO of Travelers, which contained a major investment banking division, decided to merge the company with Citibank, a commercial bank headed by John S. Reed. The merger had actually been arranged before the enabling legislation became law, and it was granted a temporary waiver by Alan Greenspan’s Federal Reserve. The night before the announcement of the merger, as Wall Street Journal reporter Monica Langley writes in her book “Tearing Down the Walls: How Sandy Weill Fought His Way to the Top of the Financial World... and Then Nearly Lost It All,” a buoyant Weill suggested to Reed, “We should call Clinton.” On a Sunday night Weill had no trouble getting through to the president and informed him of the merger, which violated existing law. After hanging up, Weill boasted to Reed, “We just made the president of the United States an insider.”

    The fix was in to repeal Glass-Steagall, as The New York Times celebrated in a 1998 article: “…the announcement on Monday of a giant merger of Citicorp and Travelers Group not only altered the financial landscape of banking, it also changed the political landscape in Washington.... Indeed, within 24 hours of the deal’s announcement, lobbyists for insurers, banks and Wall Street firms were huddling with Congressional banking committee staff members to fine-tune a measure that would update the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act separating commercial banking from Wall Street and insurance, to make it more politically acceptable to more members of Congress.”

    At the signing ceremony Clinton presented Weill with one of the pens he used to “fine-tune” Glass-Steagall out of existence, proclaiming, “Today what we are doing is modernizing the financial services industry, tearing down those antiquated laws and granting banks significant new authority.” What a jerk.

    Although Weill has shown not the slightest remorse, Reed has had the honesty to acknowledge that the elimination of Glass-Steagall was a disaster: “I would compartmentalize the industry for the same reason you compartmentalize ships,” he told Bloomberg News. “If you have a leak, the leak doesn’t spread and sink the whole vessel. So generally speaking, you’d have consumer banking separate from trading bonds and equity.”

    Instead, all such compartmentalization was ended when Clinton signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in late 1999. In his memoir Weill brags that he and Republican Senator Phil Gramm joked that it should have been called the Weill-Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Informally, some dubbed it “the Citigroup Authorization Act.”

    Gramm left the Senate to become a top executive at the Swiss-based UBS bank, which like Citigroup ran into deep trouble. Leach—former Republican Representative James Leach—was appointed by President Barack Obama in 2009 to head the National Endowment for the Humanities, where his banking skills could serve the needs of intellectuals. Robert Rubin, the Clinton administration treasury secretary who helped push through the Citigroup Authorization Act, was the most blatant double dealer of all: He accepted a $15-million-a-year offer from Weill to join Citigroup, where he eventually helped run the corporation into the ground.

    Citigroup went on to be a major purveyor of toxic mortgage–based securities that required $45 billion in direct government investment and a $300 billion guarantee of its bad assets in order to avoid bankruptcy.

    Weill himself bailed out shortly before the crash. His retirement from what was then the world’s largest financial conglomerate was chronicled in the New York Times under the headline “Laughing All the Way From the Bank.” The article told of “an enormous wooden plaque” in the bank’s headquarters that featured a likeness of Weill with the inscription “The Man Who Shattered Glass-Steagall.”

    That’s the man the American Academy of Arts & Sciences now honors, among others, for “extraordinary accomplishment and a call to serve.” Disgusting.
    http://www.thenation.com/article/167...sanford-weill#

  19. #2239

    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    819
    The difference between a debt jubilee and a debt default seems to be purely ideological anyway, one occurs as a celebration or because it is the "morally right" thing to do the other occurs because all other measures have failed, probably why the social justice crowd are beginning to like the term; default implies failure of the system, jubilee implies success of "the people" over their financial oppressors.

    On the other hand a default of any kind wouldn't be dystopian future bad, not saying we should do it just saying it's a terrible idea and would be awful but not apocalyptic.

    More reforms in the wake of the debt crash would be nice though, people understand that shit got bad but it rankles a little when those closest to the shit appear to be avoiding the worst of the smell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Just for the record, "sending a needy text" is never the right answer.

  20. #2240

    Join Date
    April 23, 2011
    Posts
    1,027
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post

    The whole jubilee issue is as inane and dumb-ignorant scary as the gold standard idiots.
    Yeah, debt jubilee isn't the answer, it would fuck things up so quickly it would lead to a partial collapse of society at best in 2-6 months. I'm not suggesting mad max style, but certainly widespread starvation, death, and the break down of law and order. Those that are suggesting that people could keep themselves going by growing their own food are forgetting some key facts, like most people don't know the first thing about growing their own food, there simply isn't enough farmland in the UK to support the current population even with modern farming methods, let alone without access to modern fertilizers, insecticides, or equipment, and even if you planted a crop tomorrow, it would be 1-3 months before you could harvest. What the fuck are you supposed to live on till then?

    The only way out imho is a) stop giving money to the banks, give it to the population who then use it to pay off any debt they hold or if debt free spend it on whatever to kickstart the economy again, b) Start some large scale publicly funded projects to give employment to thousands, kinda like they did in the 30's c) break up the "too big to fail" banks, they either do it themselves ot the government does it for them, d) re-introduce legislation that prevents this happening again.
    yes, I am Le terribad at BF3


Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •