I think the whole comparing iceland to spain/greece etc is only useful up to a point.
Iceland is comparable in size to the cities of Tarragona in Spain and Patras in Greece. Literally comparing a mouse with an elephant.
But for those interested, the value of icelands imports is less than its exports according to wikipedia, and a graphical representation of its exports:
Spoiler:
Where's the "online gaming subscriptions" component?Originally Posted by cheeba
I think the whole comparing iceland to spain/greece etc is only useful up to a point.
Iceland is comparable in size to the cities of Tarragona in Spain and Patras in Greece. Literally comparing a mouse with an elephant.
But for those interested, the value of icelands imports is less than its exports according to wikipedia, and a graphical representation of its exports:
Spoiler:
Iceland was so much better when it was Bejam.
You don't quite get it. If you stop paying off your loans, stop paying interest on those loans: you have defaulted on your obligations. When the referendum in Iceland said there would be no 'deal' on things like Icesafe, in effect, Iceland defaulted. What hasn't happened is the government actually saying so, and the countries that that carry those loans/obligations haven't called in their loans. But for all intents and purposes: Iceland already defaulted.grow more food, default, be happy and laugh at the retards that claim the sky is falling unless bad investors get back money stolen by bankers.
And it has had a massive detrimental effect on Iceland, its economy, and its people. I doubt many people in Iceland (who understand what is going on) are laughing right now.
Because there are practically no outside investments in Iceland's economy. Unless Iceland somehow deals its debt and obligations, there's not going to be any outside investment either. Try to do some banking with Iceland: anyone in Iceland really. It is simply not possible, unless there's some foreign bank involved. The Icelandic Kronar (or whatever) is worthless, and there's no improvement in that situation in sight. Outside of Iceland no one even trades or accepts it as a currency as it isn't worth the paper it is printed on. The same, basically, for all the property in Iceland itself: it is worthless. Iceland, as a nation, is a pariah economically: a no-go zone basically. It can only, barely, take care of itself, but basically only on what little it grows or catches itself: anything else is bought at astronomical prices. So I hope Icelandic children like fish. If you're paid in Icelandic currency you're basically stuffed, and what little economic activity there still is, is fuelled by what little can be brought in with foreign currencies. Economically speaking Iceland's economy basically evaporated and imploded, and that's still going on. And as long as the debt situation isn't taken care of, that regressive movement will continue until there's really nothing left but a handful of fisheries, a foreign owned aluminium smelter exploiting cheap labour for little profit (aluminium prices have gone down), and a handful companies with foreign money streams that try to hang in there (before they inevitably leave). Iceland's economy is still contracting like there is no tomorrow. Which, frankly, there isn't, economically speaking.
If Iceland had explicitly defaulted on its obligations (or let those banks go bankrupt, but that's water under the bridge by now), there might actually be some form of recovery in sight by now. But it hasn't. And the limbo they're now in is killing their long-term prospects.
Default, for a country like Iceland is no laughing matter. Unless ofcourse they do want to go back to the economic state they were in just after WW2. If that's the case then they're right on track.
In short: Iceland is fucked.
Last edited by Bartholomeus Crane; June 14 2012 at 03:57:27 PM.
Unless you prefer whale over mcdonalds then everythings just peachy.
Uper right corner, 4,5% aircraft, spacecraft ...Where's the "online gaming subscriptions" component?I think the whole comparing iceland to spain/greece etc is only useful up to a point.
Iceland is comparable in size to the cities of Tarragona in Spain and Patras in Greece. Literally comparing a mouse with an elephant.
But for those interested, the value of icelands imports is less than its exports according to wikipedia, and a graphical representation of its exports:
Spoiler:
Could be it!
:TpTlk:
Coming soon(tm).
<3 Entrox.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/14/inve....htm?hpt=hp_t3
So that semi-bailout apparently didn't reassure lenders at all. I hope the EU has some good news soon because it sure looks like things are going bad.
Actually not as much as you would like to think.Default, for a country like Iceland is no laughing matter. Unless ofcourse they do want to go back to the economic state they were in just after WW2. If that's the case then they're right on track.grow more food, default, be happy and laugh at the retards that claim the sky is falling unless bad investors get back money stolen by bankers.
In short: Iceland is fucked.
They're already been in talks with Norway and Canada about changing their currency to either of ours and both were positive about the idea.
Despite how you tried to make out that it's a fishing village with a aluminium smelter in the back they actually have a nice export surplus. If they didn't they would be fucked but fact of the matter is not only do they have that, but they have a tourist economy which is going through the roof at the moment on top of that.
As to inflation and prices, it's nowhere near as bad as you try make it out to be. Import goods are generally more expensive then what they were, however those can mainly be classed as luxury goods and the locally produced foods which cover all the base requirements is state sponsored.
Another export which Iceland has is skills they have one of the highest percentages of university degree labour pools in the world and have a large base of people that go to earn in Norway and the UK.
Housing market is actually on the rise again partially fuelled by so many expat icelanders taking the opportunity to buy property "back home" while the prices are low
Iceland now would never return to the same poverty level it had after second world war that is absolutly ridicolous. The only thing that could relatively make iceland as poor again is a complete meltdown throughout europe.
Why cede control of your currency to another country? I mean, fuck, Greece wouldn't be spiralling so hard if it had its own currency to devalue.
Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.
"You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."
Because their currency has been devalued to next to nothing on the international market. It's actually devalued so badly that Iceland who does not agree with the international rate has set their exchange rate in iceland with over 25% difference at times.
If they instead adopt canadas currency their export value will double overnight along with their buying power. The whole thing about greece being able to devalue it's currency if it wasn't in the Euro is kind of a white elephant to be honest.
Yes they would have been able to do that but that has a huge price along with it in that your countries trade power basically goes down the shitter as no one wants your filthy currency after that. Then your economy and quality of life is gonna take a dive unless you got something really good to sell and well Greece isn't exactly known for it's productivity or high skilled labour pool.
Shh listen to bart, bailout the banks and pay investors or the world will end for you tomorrow.
austerity works guys!
Absolutely we should just let banks keep their monopoly on money creation and all will be just fine for them.
Stop talking nonsense. I never argued that banks and bad investors should be bailed out on anything: the economy and the middle class should be 'bailed out' (rather saved and strengthened), the rich have enough perks, benefits, and money to fend for themselves. Austerity doesn't work, never did, and I'm all on board with both Krugman and Reich (who are basically on the same page, and just look at the problem from different angles). Stop trying to present my views as the complete opposite of what I've been saying all along, you look like a tit.
As for Iceland:
Don't put much stock in the 'positive opinion' of Canada or Norway on sharing a currency with Iceland. At the moment, Iceland already shares a foreign currency, as their own it practically worthless inside the country and truly worthless outside. Neither Canada nor Norway are in any hurry to make this a reality, and if it would ever come to pass, there would have been a quite dramatic change of circumstances first. None of those are forthcoming. Not as long as the massive foreign debt issues remain on the table. This Canada or Norway story is mostly for internal consumption anyway.
As for export surplus: it isn't really that big, and mostly there's a surplus now because Iceland simply can't afford to import as much as it used to, Nothing in the numbers I saw showed much to shout home about. Nor is the tourist part of the economy really that big, and with the world going through a depression, there isn't really much money spend on the tourist trade as it is. Ofcourse Iceland is much, much, much cheaper now than it used to be (it was the most expensive country I ever visited, the prices were just ridiculous back then), but there's not really that much to see, and it is basically a drop in the ocean. Then, again, with the rest of the economic activity having mostly dropped away (apart from fishing), no wonder tourism has become more prominent right now. In absolute terms though it still remains a piffle. And no, it is not going through the roof.
As for import prices: again, lots of Icelanders can't afford imports any more, and prices on imported goods were higher before, and have gone up significantly. The government 'sponsoring' prices locally produced, is, for a nation with a massive foreign debt problem, unsustainable in the end. I see why they do it (it is that or people going hungry), but it is just one of those 'let's tie things over until better times thing' that can't last forever. Anyway, in the end, the taxpayers still pay those higher prices, the pain is just distributed differently.
As for the 'higher education' thing. Again, mostly a story for internal consumption, a 'feel good' thing, which doesn't help very much locally. Lots of 'well educated' Icelanders have left already. And obviously won't come back any time soon. So they're not paying taxes locally, so there's no real benefit for the Icelandic government. In fact it is a brain drain if anything.
Not that it matters much anyway. Most of those 'well educated' Icelanders got their education abroad. Icelandic universities aren't as good as they themselves say they are (won't find them on the international ranking list for example). Good luck finding a job abroad with a degree of 'Fishing Management' from 'Fisherman's University' Iceland (don't laugh: there's is actually an Icelandic university specialised in the fishing industry).
Ofcourse there is some money flowing back from expats to the home country no doubt: but try building a stable economy on that, and try paying off a national debt that's more than 10 times the GDP. Especially if the number of people living in your country is about the same size as a large village or small city. Again: this is a piffle compared to the size of the problems Iceland is in.
And ofcourse the same arguments goes for expats buying property 'back home': piffle in comparison, and basically they're snatching up big houses for cheap while not actually spending a lot of time in country (and spending money there). How long do you think that'll last? That's never going to do much in the long term, and frankly, it is like buying a house on a volcano. If this is what Iceland is basing its hopes for the future on I do feel sorry for them, because it sounds like they're going to be duped a second time round.
No, I'm sorry. But all what you mentioned is either not really the case, or are just stories mostly for internal consumption: "Hold on guys, it'll get better, just believe the fairy tales for now, and don't come after me with those torches again." Right now, and for several years, even if not taking the bubble and virtual economy into account, the Icelandic economy is going through a quit pronounce contraction period. There's no real end in sight. Not as long as the serious underlying problems of massive national debt aren't, in some way, dealt with. Plugging ears with fingers isn't going to make those problems go away. As as things are getting really bad in Europe at the moment (and if the US doesn't get its head out probably there too next year) things will probably get worse and worse.
Will Iceland end up with the levels of poverty just after WW2? I hope not, for them, but right now they're heading in that direction year after year. And they'll keep doing so until they actually take their finger out and deal with their problems.
Iceland's still fucked, and if they don't know it: they should by now ...
UNBAN DRAKMA
jesus christ bart learn to be concise when writing :S You need a word limit on your posts.
OR, I could just get it over and done with in one go and that'll be the end of it. This isn't twitter you know ...
Literacy has two components: the ability to expound on a concept, and the ability to distill a concept into a more succinct form.
Learn to do both.
Blah blah tapatalk
Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.
"You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."
There were many misconceptions in Sandslinger's post. All were dealt with succinctly in a way that reflects their complexity. This has little to do with my literacy, and I guess more to do with you unwillingness to read or to make an argument to the point. I'm sorry that some concepts can't be boiled down to 5 word soundbites or twitter quotes, but that's just the way things are. At any rate, if you don't like to read my posts: don't. It really is as simple as that. And if you really don't like posts, there's this thing called twitter. Apparently you can find out which celebrity ate what for lunch.
The problem is you usually make very good points, but most of these points could be made with less then half of the words you use.There were many misconceptions in Sandslinger's post. All were dealt with succinctly in a way that reflects their complexity. This has little to do with my literacy, and I guess more to do with you unwillingness to read or to make an argument to the point. I'm sorry that some concepts can't be boiled down to 5 word soundbites or twitter quotes, but that's just the way things are. At any rate, if you don't like to read my posts: don't. It really is as simple as that. And if you really don't like posts, there's this thing called twitter. Apparently you can find out which celebrity ate what for lunch.
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