Loki VS Proteus for WH PVP

[Mrpogo]

Hey vets.

What is better for WH PVP. Either solo or in gangs. I've heard good things about the loki and am more naturally inclined to go winmatar but I've also heard people singing Proteus praises (And About time for Gallente). So lets get some discussion going on the pro's and con's of both ships yeah?

Any Tengufags can also weigh in on their merits if they want. But I'm ASSUMING that both the Proteus + Loki are better for PVP in general. Put me in my place if I'm wrong kthxbie.

I don't fly either of them atm and still deciding what to train for. Right now I'm leaning towards the loki because the skills I'll be training I will have more uses for. (Mainly trained in Matar atm.)

[Durzel]

Depends what you mean by solo really.

Proteus arguably does the swiss army knife thing best - covert ops cloak, combat probe launcher, 500+ DPS with a dronebay for ECM drones if the shit hits the fan.

Loki in covops/prober config is quite a bit faster, does similar DPS to longer distances but suffers from lack of drones or a utility high slot for a neut.

Tengu does a lot less DPS in covops config and also suffers from no drones. Legion, well, lol.

I've escaped a couple of traps in my Proteus thanks to ECM drones, am fairly sure I would've perished in the same situations in Loki. Having said that as with any truly solo ship you're at real risk of getting baited and popped.

If not "true solo" - i.e. you have a spare ship for covops probing, then you can pretty much choose either ship according to your skills and preference.

[Mr Marram]

You are going to struggle to get 400 dps out of any of the cloaking T3s especially if you give a high slot or two away to the cloak and prober. With some tank and ECM drones instead of combat ones and you might not even get 300dps.

[xanral]

Speaking from a cloaky standpoint, I'd agree with proteus. It's going to have trouble against some ratting tengu/nighthawk builds due to resistances, on the other hand it will have a great kinetic resistance for all those single ammo type tengus/nighthawks/drakes.

From a non-cloaky standpoint, I'd rather have a T3 with better GTFO options than the brawler proteus.

[Vortex]

Proteus is the best solo T3 cloaking ship - it can covop cloak, do 450+ dps, probe (or scramble at 24k depending on what you need), bring both combat and ECM drones, and still have 100k+ EHP, all while being interdiction fit. Yes your brawling, but in a wormhole thats not really a big deal sense you have the information advantage over your opponents. Cloaky Loki's have better GTFO options than the proteus (speeeed), but nowhere near the brawling power.

For gangs, the nature of blasters makes the proteus much less attractive. It can still do sick dps (1k+) at close range, and compete with scorch M with null + drones, but your still going to be fighting uphill vs. the hybrids issue. If your using it in gangs, the friction extension is mandatory so you can just insta-lock somebody down before they run away. A lot of the larger wormspace pvp groups like legions for their very high EHP/mass ratio, but you must remember that they are basically expensive, up-armored zealots in terms of performance.

100mn afterburner Tengus are sick OP if you can afford to fit them out and pimp your clone, and 100mn lokis are also pretty good if thats your thing. These fits don't covop cloak tho, so your really looking to find people who are looking to fight. Not that that is a bad thing, but its a different role than the covop ganking proteus.

[Korenchkin]

As has been said before, it depends on what you mean by "solo". If you're hunting site runners, then your targets are gonna be mainly Tengus and Drakes. Both will have pretty hefty tanks, so either ship will have trouble killing them.

Other than that, "solo" is mainly going to be ganking stupid probers, stupid PI haulers, and other stupid people. Both are ok for this cos it's not hard, although decloak bump+scram+web on the Proteus can help if it's on a wormhole.

All that leaves is the rare occasion where you come across someone else who is looking for solo PvP, and then the "rock, paper, scissors" factor comes into play. CLoki is basically a slow, low dps Vaga, (albeit with a decent buffer) so you're screwed if they can tank you or outrun you, Proteus is screwed if you can't land a scram and web on them and they can kite you (ECM drones might save you though).

If you dualbox a T3 and a DPS/Neut ship it opens up a whole world of possibilities though.

[Wrack]

your targets are gonna be mainly Tengus and Drakes. Both will have pretty hefty tanks, so either ship will have trouble killing them.

If you dualbox a T3 and a DPS/Neut ship it opens up a whole world of possibilities though.

Pretty much this. I've dualboxed a covops and a loki, so my loki has a med neut instead of probes, which works for killing drakes by switching off their hardeners. Haven't tried a tengu yet with that but I'll bet it would be pretty tough.

Edit: I have gone up against a site-running tengu now. 1 med neut cannot break its tank :/

[Rampro.]

All this talk of drones on a cov-ops protus , you dont have a drone bay with that sub.

prot is the only one capable having 400+ without launcher

You want a covert scanning legion with neuts and a prot for dps.

[Daneel Trevize]

All this talk of drones on a cov-ops protus , you dont have a drone bay with that sub.

You want to stop there before you sound like more of a fool.

Edit: fuck it, bit of an old thread but I'll weigh in on this as I have :experience: (almost always armour fit, "where we're going, we won't need wheels nano-fagging")

Proteus is in its element doing this shit. Cov ops cloak, 450+DPS, probe launcher, 100k ehp, bonused point range, 100m drone bay for dps+GTFO+even rep drones for corpmates after pew. You can find anyone with just dscan or a single run of core probes dropped the other side of the system if you must, you decloak in blaster range, your resists can tank drakes & tengus for quite some time.
But you're still a blaster boat, tengus are still agile (retardedly so if not AB fit), drakes can be bricks that even 500dps won't break, sleepers do omni-damage and switch targets, you don't have bonused probes + bonused point/eccm. Sleepers also neut correctly now and you need a web over a cap booster being as tengus AB like a mofo. Some corpmates favoured a sensor booster as a heavy tackler, but that's knowing that backup's arriving with webs, my fit was good for most pew, only very small scale stuff without even a single guardian backup meant you were fucked by any neuts.

The loki is almost the opposite, at least the armour fits have nice long point + web combo for easy tackle and some chance to gtfo from bait ships. The guns also don't need cap and you could work in a neut to take out hardeners but nowadays afaik people are resistant and you'll need all the dps you can squeeze out of this thing, it can't really break c3 anom runners solo, and that's the highest class people solo since the sleeper neut change. I think a corpmate had a shield fit with bonused combat probes and 100k ehp but the dps and tackle aren't there. Yes it could mwd to keep the long point on things, but dat sig, it was purely for dualboxing work (we almost all dualboxed so we could 'solo' at any time/activity level).

The legion is similar to that shield loki, easy to get a huge 150k ehp buffer, bonused probes, no dps, shit speed+weak tackle, no gtfo. Can't do bonused probes and bonused neuts (another reason why Rampro's a pro only in name). You could active tank any of these t3s, the loki doesn't get a SS that directly bonuses it unlike the rest (lol sig res tank subsystem instead) but they all also have buffer & resist SS options for buffer or active, plus bonused AB means you can either speedtank missile & large guns dps or go perhaps full pimp and 100mn AB it, though then IDK of any fit that's also cov ops cloaky & able to kill much. Best to stick to no cloak, even no probe launcher either and as much dps as possible if you're bringing 100mn as a backup dps ship. And in that role, just a cane with 2 neuts, or a sleip with 1, works very nicely.

I didn't want to mix up that active tanked T3s can be good 1v1 with that fact that 100mn is best 1v many, but they're best (w-space ganking fit-wise) active tanking with just 10mn ABs and then you're committed. I never felt comfy in my tackler legion with corpum a-type repper back when I was a noob, I just liked that it looked a bit like an Avatar and I was making bank from pvping shiny tengus. Almost all these other ships need hardly any faction to work well.

Other solo ships were the pilgrim, but again neut immunity in recent sleeper fits, ...and IDK what else. Combos, the arazu and stealth bomber were a good possibility to bring plenty enough dps and gtfo, as long as you stayed at just the right ranges and weren't in somewhere shit like a black hole. Related point being arazu & rapier are excellent tackle, fuck all dps, and arazu + falcon for permajamming overkill. Some people in w-space even flew (out of corp) arazu and mach for the extreme of the dualboxing gank combo (Starbridge).
Proteus + curse was another big favourite of mine, for all kinds of small pew. Easier to dualbox, curse is easier to fly at range and still break tanks/neut out tacklers & TD dps off of you if it's a trap, even if armour-tanked it's not got that much GTFO. An ashimmu is/was a cheap alternative that does wonders against active tengus, if you know you're ganking someone. The perfect combo of 90% webs, bonused amount neuts and decent enough EM damage, but like the pilgrim & proteus, works up close, GTFO is going though people or neuting all tackle off.

Side point, bombers are fucking amazing in w-space, cheap, same skills as cov ops, minimal mass, NO DECLOAKING DELAY, great dps which is best against bigger ships/buffers (including POS), can do dps + probes + cov ops cloak + point all in one (at least, the purifier can, good damage choice too). They just can't really take on an anom running fit, really have to warp out when sleepers even think of looking at them, and can require good manual piloting to transition from first tackle to safer dps support range without being insta-popped.

BTW, iirc tengu does less dps than the Prot cloaky, a little more than the usual lokis iirc, has similar buffer, but no bonused tackle, so doesn't really have much going for it except faggot fits (Starbridge again) with a RR + big buffer, so mates/alts can all fly the same and spider tank like a mofo while dps out to 100km - which isn't solo pvp ganking.

[Rampro.]

mr :experiance:

You want your alt WITH bonused probes to move easily about whs in fact il make that a need (when ur soloing you will find it handy )

3 med nuets and 1 nos can nuet any active tengu no probs if hes in a site it doesnt take 5 scans to probe him down.


You want 150k ehp and 460 (520 with void) dps with the power core sub ( more is better right na lets have 25mb drones instead of 50k ehp)

This is how you solo just you and an alt

A legion which has the probing skills , decent nueting (270 cap less than the bonused sub but the covops style probing comes inhandy ) and 150k ehp.

A dps 460 ship with 150 EHP

Both are slow as shit but ul pick your targets being solo anyway.

It is one of the best solo covert pairing, struggle to think of a pair of coverts that could cover as many targets.

[Daneel Trevize]

You have ~1 month's w-space experience, ~19 shipkills (including haulers, etc), you alt's Cranky Waters and you actually favour Cynabal + zealot, with only 6 kills in your proteus?

[Rampro.]

and u have no solo kills execept pods

more than 1 month :P ,I lived in one solo for about 3

yes its a new ship combo for me ,but I have explained in detail why

then you start a battleclinic dual?

Its a good combo

the legion is also nullified

[Daneel Trevize]

Well eve-kill is only seeming to show an unknown space block for you in the last few weeks.
I have issue with you because you're factually wrong about my favourite ship doing exactly what the OP was asking about.
Here's the ships & weapons used during arguably me + my alt's best month, see I have the experience & specific kills as I describe.

HICs are also simple to dualbox but crap tackle against anything with even an AB. The Astarte is a nice combo of big dps, tackle and active tank + kinetic resist for some fun small scale w-space pew.

As for more incorrect statements such as no solo kills, here's just me dualboxing (single screen to boot) against Monk's of War's infamous CEO+friends in their home c6 pulsar, in armour tanked ships.
I follow their orca and loki from their POS to their static exit in my alt's rapier, my main takes down the sudden loki solo on the other side in my proteus.
Meanwhile the orca's jumped back and I've tackled it while the rocket wizard himself swaps from a shield fit Revelation to a zealot and come at me. I then have the perfect tackle and resists to hold him long enough to get the proteus through & on him and then the rapier jumped out, meanwhile a tengu's pounding from range, and if it weren't for the horrendous c6 bonuses against me, I'd again be in a decent 2 ships for the job, and thanks to my close range power I have control of the hole to leave without losses.

I almost miss this game.

[Rampro.]

Im not impressed with your stories

thanks for chest beating on a ship dicussion thread

my covert combo rocks

ps Astarte is wank

thats the worst loki ive seen in my life and a even worse zealot .

[Daneel Trevize]

You see, calling the Astarte 'wank' is almost implying you've no real experience with w-space at all, or suddenly that the first 5km around a hole or warp-ins right into tackle range isn't 90% of the combat.

If the loki had reacted quick enough to keep at any range, I'd have been fucked in that proteus against those 3 ships+bonus, even with my cov ops cloak he has high scanres & speed to tackle me with polarity before I can align away.
That zealot is a cookie cutter nano fit afaik (see admin Don's video Nanofibre Internal Structure for it in action), and perfect in a shield bonusing system. Don't you know basic nano fits either? AFAIK Dark Side. (who we're dealing with here) are pros at nano kiting stuff, which is why they got very far in the recent ATs (Fon himself flying in a Nightmare vs winners PL in the AT8 knockout final day for example, they get to finals day vs PL and Outbreak most recently too).

[Rampro.]

You see, calling the Astarte 'wank' is almost implying you've no real experience with w-space at all, or suddenly that the first 5km around a hole or warp-ins right into tackle range isn't 90% of the combat.

Use a slepnier if u want that not some active repping fag blaster shit, Astarte is wank you have no eve experience.

IF the loki had reacted quick enough to keep at any range, I'd have been fucked in that proteus against those 3 ships+bonus, even with my cov ops cloak he has high scanres & speed to tackle me with polarity before I can align away.
That zealot is a cookie cutter nano fit afaik (see admin Don's video Nanofibre Internal Structure for it in action), and perfect in a shield bonusing system. Don't you know basic nano fits either?

Zealot is a wank nano ship for folks who cant fly real nano's fly.

You have also moved on from OP's COVERT solo question to general WH space tactics ( for which you love repping blaster boats ) and trying to claw back some dignity, I wont fall to your level Im afraid.

[Daneel Trevize]

You have gone full retard.

[Rampro.]

You have gone full retard.

It would seem so

[shoki]

while you both seam to have a point, to a point (i don't have WH experience), your writing style is shit and it hurts my eyes

[Helen]

Going to clean this thread at a later date but take notice that I will infract you so hard you'll wish you never regged.