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Thread: We met with Arnar today

  1. #141
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    I know...
    On the up side, I do get to watch those cats fight on every page you post on.. So keep it up!
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  2. #142
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    On the up side, I do get to watch those cats fight on every page you post on.. So keep it up!
    noobcake my #1 fan!

    /puts out more bait

  3. #143
    Helicity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a mitten View Post
    i think you guys often mistake my 'ego' for simple raw contempt, it's not arrogant to recognize a screaming lunatic for what he is. it might be cruel to poke the lunatic with sticks and insult him, but that's a different character flaw

    the posts by bart, virt, yourself and evel are so hilariously off the rails with either misplaced claims of competence (hello mittens let ~me~ tell ~you~ about politics and business - both!) or straightjacketed paranoia that there's no point in engaging in dialogue. that group also forgets that your particular echo chamber ("mad about CCP and unable to accept anything but doomsday theories, posts on FHC") is a population of at most 200 people. the core posters in that group number perhaps 20.

    realposting to a troll because the echo chamber phenomenon is an interesting one

    what really proves that this group is unsalvagably nuts is how rapidly you turn on even your own candidates as being ~traitors to the cause~ even though they've been in CSM5 (trebor), your now-sainted exemplars, and are supposedly FHC-approved. Trebor tells you useful, good things and your response is to shit your pants and screech at him.

    it's like telling someone in the tea party or in an evangelical church that some of their truths are not true p much
    I really don't see why you dignify the rampant "omg this csm is so bad" crowd with responses. As much as I am ~mad~ at CCP, I really don't think it's your fault, nor indeed that there is realistically anything you can do to make CCP... well... not be retards.

  4. #144
    Dodgy Past's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a mitten View Post
    what really proves that this group is unsalvagably nuts is how rapidly you turn on even your own candidates as being ~traitors to the cause~ even though they've been in CSM5 (trebor), your now-sainted exemplars, and are supposedly FHC-approved. Trebor tells you useful, good things and your response is to shit your pants and screech at him.

    it's like telling someone in the tea party or in an evangelical church that some of their truths are not true p much
    Or he could reflect on what he's doing different this time around compared with last time.... assuming he actually cares.

    If you were going to delve into that deeper you'd also notice that this time around Meissa is more popular, two step is appreciated far more than might have been imagined from the initial greeting he got here and I suspect most people are very satisfied to see Seleene behaving roughly as they expected him to when they voted for him. FWIW I'd also suggest many find you far less obnoxious than they expected to, though that's probably down to their own expectation management

  5. #145

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    sorry if this question has been asked before.

    But what makes you guys think that the devs are actually going to do anything they say?

    Its great that the CSM put CCP in the hot-seat over their shenanigans.

    But, in the past, CCP has been rather notorious for saying what ever they have to say to get out of the hot-seat while never intending to do any of it.

    why back off now? why not keep the roaster going until action is taken?

    make ccp put their money where their mouth is, not just let them show it to everyone and have them say it will be :awesome:.

  6. #146
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donte View Post
    sorry if this question has been asked before.

    But what makes you guys think that the devs are actually going to do anything they say?

    Its great that the CSM put CCP in the hot-seat over their shenanigans.

    But, in the past, CCP has been rather notorious for saying what ever they have to say to get out of the hot-seat while never intending to do any of it.

    why back off now? why not keep the roaster going until action is taken?

    make ccp put their money where their mouth is, not just let them show it to everyone and have them say it will be :awesome:.
    The short version, is that mittens relies very much on friend contacts. If a brosef says so, it is so. This often is the case, but not necessarily so - as has been demonstrated in the past few months. But, this is the same root problem that has plagued CCP for so long (and still does), if a friend says X, it's cool. All too often, they cannot seperate in a healthy manner between "person" and "position". The CSM as a while is very constricted in what information they can get from CCP, increasingly so. They do have open communications, but since EVE in maintenance mode is subject to business allocation levels above all else, it is a question whether CSM is able to reach out and communicate in meaningful manners with those who make the real decisions. Arnar / Zulu for example is a good point (and an honest point) of contact for the product level, but it is above that level which impacts the course for EVE, the resources available to EVE, and the timeline for EVE.

    Which is why you get sillyness like people sneaking in untested content elements in a bugfix patch, or half an expansion cut off because in the end it turns out that the brosef talk was bull, and so forth. Things that are not exceptions, but which have become the rule. Even now parts of CCP pride themselves that they are so good at reserving programming time post patch for weeks. After so many years, one would have thought that at least someone would have asked "guys, since we all went so apeshit over technical debt, would it not be an idea to, you know, like, impose some limits on how much technical debt we can incur? It's only a matter of time before our customers figure shit out again and slap us silly with our own words and then the bosses get emberassed again".

    That being said, there is a caveat to make here. It is one thing to pressure CCP by means of the only thing that counts: public exposure. It is another thing to prevent causing structural damage, through overexposure. That is a very fine line to walk for any CSM.

    As this CSM chose not for a consistant approach in maintaining transparancy, but only a very selective approach (spotlight), it really only has that (very easily excessive) instrument of throwing stuff in social and gaming networking. That is a very limited tool, as such things are very easy to spiral out of control.

    Take for example of how years ago all messaging concerning CCP and EVE was positively trended. These days, that has become largely negatively trended. But that is within the connected communities. Too much exposure of that with too much consistancy can easily create a trending perception. A notion, if you will, in gaming that EVE is not worth it. And that, is averse to what both CCP and CSM and its customers dare to want.

    Calling off the media push, was the sensible thing to do. At this point. It is however, something of an instrument which can only be used a few times, before either it has to hit its target or it becomes ineffective. Credibility of source and message is a topic there really. CCP is very much aware of that, it is one reason why they do the madness in incremental tiny steps. Every action will over time by default be met with a decreasing reaction (and not just on this level of exposure management or messaging).

    The problem is, that this CSM has no other instruments available to maintain an open arena, other than that which comes down to brosef communications. Which is basically tough and sturdy talk with some, and friendly talk with others, depending on who feeds you what and does as you like (with a dose present also of verifying competence in steps along the way). But that is not because of CCP, that has been a choice made by the current chair. The rest of the CSM has to work within those constraints.

    Brosef engineering is nothing other than social engineering 2.0, with the added risk that it is a blade that cuts in more than one way. As we have seen, with CCP taking a walk with CSM statements and opinions, to suit their own opinions and desires, more than once.
    Last edited by Virtuozzo; September 14 2011 at 02:10:42 PM.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  7. #147
    Donor Mike deVoid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    And yet you keep coming back here to reply time and time again to tell us just how much you hold us in contempt, how arrogant you are not, and how much smarter you are than all of us. For all the trolling that you tell everyone you're so good at, who's being trolled here?

    And good job on copying CCP's self-affirming attitude as well BTW. "They're only perhaps 20 core posters, who don't really matter! We now what the player's really want!" Keep applying yourself to the 'silent majority' genius. Worked wonders for Nixon didn't it? You sure are funny, if totally predictable ...
    At least he still plays the fucking game. You keep coming back and posting :words: to let us all know how ~little~ you care. Yawn.
    Last edited by Mike deVoid; September 14 2011 at 04:09:51 PM.

  8. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by a mitten View Post
    Trebor tells you useful, good things and your response is to shit your pants and screech at him.
    I am old, and my senses are dulled. I can't smell the shit or hear the high-frequency screeching. I guess that's why I like Failheap so much.

  9. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donte View Post
    sorry if this question has been asked before.

    But what makes you guys think that the devs are actually going to do anything they say?

    Its great that the CSM put CCP in the hot-seat over their shenanigans.

    But, in the past, CCP has been rather notorious for saying what ever they have to say to get out of the hot-seat while never intending to do any of it.

    why back off now? why not keep the roaster going until action is taken?

    make ccp put their money where their mouth is, not just let them show it to everyone and have them say it will be :awesome:.
    I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
    1) We met with Arnar
    2) We stopped our media campaign

    I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    The problem is, that this CSM has no other instruments available to maintain an open arena, other than that which comes down to brosef communications.
    Which surprises me as Mittens and the CSM talk often of the carrot failing, but unless it has been all NDA-ed theres no carrot in the CSM minutes. For someone walking in with the resume Mittens has, conflict resolution and strategies for dealing with it should be subtle, plentiful and effective. Maybe that's all happening on skype but the impass with business shows either those strategies don't work when not dealing with like-minded Goons happy to march in step or they don't just plain don't work.

    Chairman 'lol I know politics and business' is hitting the same walls as CSM5. The media campaign might work, but that's a blackmail strategy and has nothing to do with Mitten's skills to charm/massage or alter perception.

  11. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
    1) We met with Arnar
    2) We stopped our media campaign

    I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...
    You were told something that made you back off, duh. Given that they haven't DONE anything visible to me, the clueless peon. That doesn't address the 'watch what they do, not what they say' concern at all.

    Not that I think backing off was the wrong thing to do, but I don't see how you can fail to see why people are still worried that CCP won't actually DO anything about your (and our) concerns.

  12. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
    1) We met with Arnar
    2) We stopped our media campaign

    I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...
    Figured what out? You had a meeting and got told what you wanted to hear........

    CCP would never say something one day then a few months later when things have calmed down go and do the opposite or nothing would they?

  13. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    I find it amazing the sorts of crazy conclusions you guys are willing to jump to, but you haven't yet figured out what the obvious one is. You have been given 2 pieces of information:
    1) We met with Arnar
    2) We stopped our media campaign

    I would have thought you guys would have figured it out by now, tbh...
    What's NDA about 'Eve is getting more devs'?

    [edit] I got it! CCP are cancelling WoD!!!! right? right??

  14. #154
    XenosisReaper
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    Quote Originally Posted by a mitten
    You say things I don't like so you are all lunatics
    GG

    edit, I actually like most of the CSM, just because they are "FHC Approved" doesn't mean I can't call bullshit when I see bullshit.

    That said, I'm fairly sure I haven't raged about the latest meeting yet because I trust theres an actual good reason for the CSM to be so upbeat.

    If not...well I don't even play Eve anymore so :welp:

    I just love trolling you because it's so easy tbh.
    Last edited by XenosisReaper; September 14 2011 at 03:08:11 PM.

  15. #155
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebor Daehdoow View Post
    I am old, and my senses are dulled. I can't smell the shit or hear the high-frequency screeching. I guess that's why I like Failheap so much.
    The new car should compensate a little :-)
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  16. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traxio Nacho View Post
    Figured what out? You had a meeting and got told what you wanted to hear........

    CCP would never say something one day then a few months later when things have calmed down go and do the opposite or nothing would they?
    OMG, you are right. If only we were smart enough to have known of this behavior before we had the meeting!

  17. #157
    XenosisReaper
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    What's NDA about 'Eve is getting more devs'?

    [edit] I got it! CCP are cancelling WoD!!!! right? right??
    I don't see one of the only senior devs left on Eve confirming an entirely unrelated game cancellation :sadface:

  18. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    OMG, you are right. If only we were smart enough to have known of this behavior before we had the meeting!
    Indeed. Which is why I trust that you have some good reason to believe this won't happen. That's all I have to base this belief on though - trust. And I'm sure you know what lessons Eve teaches about trust

    (Which is why I would hope you're pushing for whatever this super-sekrit stuff that has you all so upbeat to be released to the public in some fashion very, very soon. Allowing it to fester for 2 months is not an option if you want to keep the rabble soothed)

  19. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    OMG, you are right. If only we were smart enough to have known of this behavior before we had the meeting!
    Well I was being sarcastic, but the point was you've obviously been told things from CCP which is good but :because of NDA: can't say what is it.

    However I assume you can't have anything in place to actually hold CCP to anything they have told you in a meeting? So until the player base see something implemented on TQ or at least discussed from a Dev, a lot of people will still be sceptical of what CCP say especially considering their track record.

    Anyhow we'll have to wait and see what happens "watch what they do not what they say"

  20. #160
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    Which surprises me as Mittens and the CSM talk often of the carrot failing, but unless it has been all NDA-ed theres no carrot in the CSM minutes. For someone walking in with the resume Mittens has, conflict resolution and strategies for dealing with it should be subtle, plentiful and effective. Maybe that's all happening on skype but the impass with business shows either those strategies don't work when not dealing with like-minded Goons happy to march in step or they don't just plain don't work.

    Chairman 'lol I know politics and business' is hitting the same walls as CSM5. The media campaign might work, but that's a blackmail strategy and has nothing to do with Mitten's skills to charm/massage or alter perception.
    Well, it hasn't worked. That's been clear a while now. What remains, for him, is personal objectives. Which is entirely understandable imo.

    CSM5 got a lot further than this CSM6 sofar. But note the "sofar". Just like with CSM5, CCP is trying to continue the same wishes & wants (some out of business necessity, others out of ingrained methods, yet others simply because too much has piled up over time - which includes both cultural and technical debts).

    CSM5 however was not a unified CSM. It was a small core, with noses pointing the same way and a shared understanding of what works and how things tick. But it spent a hell of a lot of time with itself, as there was another core just not agreeing with those methods. And yeah, a bit which just went for the lulz and the brosef. But CSM5 did get uncannily close to unveiling CCP's own chokepoints (and people) to CCP itself.

    To really take care of EVE, and the interests shared by CCP, CSM and Customers alike, that is one of the biggest required targets to deal with. The bottlenecks internal, the bullshit, which too often "CCP" believes or even adopts because of how they have grown.

    But CSM6, regardless of the showboat mittens and the illusions of brosef engineering, IS a lot more unified. Sure it has its bunch of useless nitwits. Doh. Welcome to the human race. But they are not in each others way. And that presents an enormous opportunity, which would be a shame to see derailed as it has been the past few months. In part by CCP, and in part by the way this CSM began and how it initially approached the choice of methods.

    Now I'm sure there won't be a response from Mittens to this, but this is something which has become clear:
    1. this CSM has a unity which provides a very decent platform.
    2. this CSM has a basic reach in gaming platforms for CCP's existing markets.
    3. this CSM is learning that no matter how much brosef talk above or below the table, business dictates game.

    This all has consequences, obviously. For one, the necessity to maintain a consistant visibility and transparancy. That is not the same as controlling the narrative, on the contrary. Besides, CSM being dependant of CCP "the company" and CCP "the people" for information simply has zero means to control any narrative. It can only buffer or support narrative. Withholding either, visibly and consistantly is one of its biggest potential instruments. There is good reason why Hilmar (and others) sought and seek a different tone and presentation.

    But it is one step at a time, and each time every instrument CSM could wield loses value if the arena consists of spotlights. The carrot failed, because there was no distinction made in accountability between "the company" and "the people". As such you only saw CSM's own adaptation of CCP's "positivity" methods. Spotlighting select (good) people doing good things. But no spotlighting on those places where things broke, or were left in the dark.

    And that, has been a boost to good people yes. But it has also been an enormous boost to the rotten apples. If nobody points out to things breaking, the ones not caring (so to speak) are under no obligation to change even their mindset or stance to it all. So by default the mess that breaks things, plans and promises alike (business > game as both reason and abused excuse) continues.

    CSM is right. We do need new things to do. We don't need new things to wear. That is only ever going to be of real interest once CCP manages to not just create gameplay for Incarna, but also only once it manages to attract and cultivate customer types that adopt that game above the gameplay. This is the thing which a lot at CCP did not get during fanfest when they said that they could not wait for the Incarna drama to be over. The cost of Incarna begins only after all that. Anything up to that point, is just initial steps of BUILDING A MARKET. Which ideally you do alongside and in parallel to building the game. And CCP, meanwhile, is still throwing everything it's got at building the game first and foremost.

    The media campaign, as mittens noted, is over btw. The next time, it can be used less deeply. Which IS a shame. And CCP is quite aware of this.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

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