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Thread: [Devblog] CSM Special Summit – Meeting Minutes Are Out

  1. #1
    Raz's Avatar
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    [Devblog] CSM Special Summit – Meeting Minutes Are Out

    Quote Originally Posted by CCP
    CSM Special Summit – Meeting Minutes Are Out
    reported by CCP Xhagen | 2011.09.09 14:22:53 | NEW | Comments

    Several well-known things lead to a special CSM summit being held in Iceland the 30th of June – 1st of July on very short notice. This summit consisted of three main topics: the latest expansion, EVE Online: Incarna and the introduction of Captain’s Quarters; the debut of the Noble Exchange; and CCP’s plans for the sale of virtual goods in EVE.

    At the end of the summit, a summary of the conclusions was published when it concluded, and as with all CSM summits so far the minutes were to follow soon after. Obviously that was not the case this time. As with all sensitive matters that have to be agreed upon by many people, it takes time to create a document that everyone can accept. It is important to keep in mind that CSM meeting minutes are not released unless both CCP and the CSM give their approval. This is a mandate that I have set as the CSM Project Manager and I stand by it even if it means delays like this one.

    Both parties had strong opinion regarding the content, presentation and tone of the minutes and so a considerable amount of time and effort was spent in reaching a compromise. These things might sound trivial and many people might call it a battle of semantics, but the content of these minutes are far from trivial. They are very important to both participants in the summit and everyone wanted them to properly reflect the tone from the meetings.

    The minutes have now been accepted by both parties and can be viewed here: CSM Special Summit minutes.

    CCP Xhagen
    CSM Project Manager
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  2. #2
    Redclaws's Avatar
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    Nothing was discussed about the removal of ship spinning?
    At least not on the introduction.

    Edit: It's on page 2
    Last edited by Redclaws; September 9 2011 at 04:55:43 PM.

  3. #3
    Tarminic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redclaws View Post
    Nothing was discussed about the removal of ship spinning?
    At least not on the introduction.
    Page 2, there's a paragraph about it:
    Both before and during the meeting the CSM also expressed their desire for the return of ship spinning, as spinning the ship in-station is a meaningful part of the game experience to many players. To address both this issue and performance concerns, CCP offered to implement an environment that would be similar in look and function to the old hangar view, and would include ship spinning. It should be noted that the old hangar view itself will not be returning, but something similar will take its place. The CSM will be kept informed throughout the design of this feature. The option to disable the loading of station environments will be retained until this matter has been addressed.
    Also, in before repeated claims of EVE's imminent death.

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  4. #4

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    Minutes, or, how to say nothing of any consequence over eight pages. Rather disappointingly vague and non-committal from CCP....

  5. #5
    Donor Fuggin's Avatar
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    Nothing most of us didn't already know from the CSM thread here, so meh.
    <&QuackBot> Fuggin: There once was a man named tugginfuggin. He oft tugged his fuggin. That is the tale of tugginfuggin.

  6. #6
    ufk's Avatar
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    That's a lot of words to convey absolutely bugger all information, I wouldn't mind seeing the originals put forth by both the CSM and CCP, as Fuggin said not much we hadn't already gleaned from the thread, they may as well have just sat on it.

    The minutes in a nutshell : CCP still suck at communication and are adamant that their NEX store is awesome™, as are the prices.

  7. #7
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    So they remove ship spinning only to promise its return at an undefined time, it will probably be broken and they can blame not having other features on having had to work on ship spinning. Didn't they promise a new cyno effect too, and engine trails? It'll never see the light of day

  8. #8
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    So we've been waiting 2 months for THIS?!
    The scary part is that the CCP representatives seem to actually believe what they're saying.

  9. #9
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Actually, it is a very interesting document in a way. Just not in the way that CCP will want it to be I guess.

    One thing I found interesting is how well rehearsed the message must have been at that time. And to how much effort CCP went, and still goes through, to stick to it. Even though, in all probability they, as well as we know that half of it, if not more, was completely made up afterwards, and sounds just plain unbelievable, or at the least, unbelievably, well, stupid.

    Another thing I found interesting is that the CSM, although maybe not vigorously enough from the minutes, tried to make at least some of the position of the players clear to CCP but how little, if anything, of that actually penetrated anywhere. To be honest I can't find a single instance where it did where CCP didn't, apparently, agree to concede it prior anyway.

    Communication is one such thing. It is quite clear from the minutes that CCP had decided to do a mea culpa on being bad at communication, and that that was, basically, the only concession they were going to make. And it comes through throughout the minutes, and everything always seems to be brought to it as the begin all and end all of everything that went wrong. Outside the reality-distortion bubble you'd have to be pretty retarded to just accept that, but it is quite clear that whatever efforts this CSM made to go beyond this token concession, which frankly isn't a lot all things considered, that got nowhere.

    The reality is ofcourse that CCP isn't actually that bad at communicating. It certainly isn't any good at it, but it really isn't that worse than others to be honest. The problem isn't communication itself, but what you do with what is communicated. You could included that in the term communication ofcourse, but that would just confuse everything. The problem with CCP is that communication is, or has become if you want, one-way. CCP dictates outwards and ignores to communicate everything it doesn't want to communicate. Not a particularly unique way of doing things, there are plenty of examples quite similar. But it is quite how closed, dismissive, and ignorant CCP is for any communication into the company. It is not just stubborn ignorance, which it certainly looks like, but it is as if the outside world doesn't exist, or doesn't really matter. I don't know, perhaps this Island mentality is just inbred. I'm certainly leaning to think so.
    Last edited by Bartholomeus Crane; September 9 2011 at 06:56:43 PM.

  10. #10

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    Stuff I've noticed but hadn't heard before:

    The CSM stated that although the new gun effects are very nice, icons leave something to be desired and are difficult to distinguish from each other. The CSM felt they were too dark and are difficult to distinguish from each other and generally hard to see. CCP agreed there was room for improvement, and stated that work already underway on this matter.

    Stuff about the mac client needing a translation layer, thus mac users are forever going to be fucked, performance wise.

    The section with Apollo is gloriously bad. I get a strong vibe of "We read everything, got all our MT-knowing guys in a room, and decided EVE was unique so threw all the evidence out the window." with a side order of "we have a strategy, and that's why it's okay that we fucked it up because it's in-line with the strategy."
    Pro-tip, Apollo: you have a fucking economist on staff. Inability to detect and learn from customer reaction to fucking prices is never going to be an excuse so long as you're literally down the hall from one of the world's few academic experts in MMO economies. "We only released 8 items because we wanted to learn from reactions" is a shit excuse and you know it.


    The section on fearless is indeed nothing new, but perhaps a good summary of CCP's various apologies.

  11. #11
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Isn't CCP Apollo an economist? Isn't he the one and the same guy who in the Greed is good thing was advocating loudly that MT were the best thing since sliced bread, and that they were already doing gold ammo and such ...

    Could be mixing up these fuckers ofcourse ...

  12. #12
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    Tempted to link a picture called japanese_vomit_porn.jpg as a visual representation of what CCP said there, but would probably get banned again, and then what would I waste my time on on a friday night?

  13. #13
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    The CSM generally agreed that from a purely technical standpoint, Incarna had generally been a very
    successful expansion. Apart from the usual and expected hiccups, the deployment of the software was
    very smooth.
    Which is what CCP always seeks, as validation internally. In simple terms, these things are what enable them to continue the messaging that results in simply not tackling their challenges. This has not changed since the days where CCP utilised hush hush mini corps on test servers with special tools until today with various incarnations of the CSM.

    They literally stop listening and processing beyond that technical validation, and pass it forward as success. It's a huge problem, since any product delivery can be technically perfect yet commercially counterproductive (to give just one scenario).

    Not that it stops them if they do not get that technical validation. Take Tyrannis. It was madness. But they got their validation of "it is new, nobody has done that before" and used that as a marker of success for messaging.

    I know good people deserve credit for good work. But there is a fine line where CCP as a whole just gets ran off by those who milk the validation points. Just don't give it to them. Period. Make the strong distinction between selective credit where credit is due, but refuse to give the whole any validation points to (ab)use until sufficient time has passed to figure out the actual results over time of the full picture.

    The second leg of the session involved showing the CSM how Incarna was received in terms of
    subscriber numbers and trends as well as informing them of other business and analytics metrics. While
    the initial trends gave an indication of how things will go, they don’t tell the whole story. The CSM and
    CCP had a productive dialogue regarding these trends and how they compared to previous expansions
    Productive dialogue can mean anything from a friendly agreement to disagree and followup in due time, to a full briefing commitment regularly on subscription numbers.

    This way, it literally says nothing. It will be interesting now, to add Jester's figures to that picture, and to push CCP to provide full insight into their calculations (and methods + timeline) they show CSM on this topic now.


    Sigh.


    Alright, dinnertime.
    J'ai violι votre vaisseau spatial. C'ιtait amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  14. #14
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    A market study was done in order to give CCP an overview of options and existing industry standards
    regarding virtual goods and services, including topics such as currency denomination, price points,
    catalogue management, distribution of items between tiers, “big spenders,” and business models used
    in the industry.
    I trust CSM got CCP to actually SHOW them that market study? Would have been the first thing to ask for there, it is not like this CSM does not have its own experts there, and sofar it is pointing strongly to either the market study having been bullshit, or CCP just picking what pleased them, or CCP screwing up in the process.


    Now really dinner. Nom.
    J'ai violι votre vaisseau spatial. C'ιtait amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  15. #15
    Donor Rans's Avatar
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    1. CCP began the session by stating for the record that there are not, nor have there ever been, any plans
    to introduce game-breaking items or enhancements to EVE

    2. CCP responded that it was already paying the long-term cost of having given such definitive answers in the
    past and was learning from this prior experience by not doing the same thing again.

    Ambiguity at its best.

  16. #16
    Movember 2011Donor
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    Not even sure why these are called minutes? As a company director (1 of 2) we must have every board meeting minuted (neither of us have PA's so we hire one in that day). They keep a record that I say XYZ and he said ABC, and he wins (he owns more shares than me, always wins!)...

    So we disagree... and the minutes are there to show that I disagreed....

    These are not minutes, minutes are not there to be argued if they could "tone it down", minutes are a record of what was being said, by whom, who agreed or disagreed.

    Normally you don't publish minutes till the next meeting and the first point is always, agree the minutes are factual and correct... If not we correct, but its always a case of mistake on who said what.. never tone!.

    This looks like CSM bent over, and nothing was agreed and CCP is wonderful and so are the CSM...

    BOLLOX to that!


    ninja edit -
    Yeah CCP has to agree for NDA.. but CSM turning up, being NASTY.. is what (or I hoped) is what happend.. That shouldn't break ANY NDA!
    You may be a king or a little street sweeper, but sooner or later you will dance with the reaper!

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    Would have been the first thing to ask for there, it is not like this CSM does not have its own experts there, and sofar it is pointing strongly to either the market study having been bullshit, or CCP just picking what pleased them, or CCP screwing up in the process.
    They explain just two paragraphs later: CCP decided that Eve is unique and thus not held by the same mortal laws of reality, so they can just ignored all data on the subject.

    CCP pointed out that there is no one -to -one comparison between EVE Online and any other game, either in a visual quality or depth of gameplay sense. Further more, due to the unique nature of game, CCP’s stance is that continued innovation is needed and the forging of new paths when it comes to virtual goods and services is a necessary part of that innovation.

    It was therefore clear to CCP that while countless books and resources could be used, CCP would need to take incremental measured steps on this path, the better be able to utilize the knowledge gained through all future development.
    No doubt because it didn't match up with their already formed opinion on how MT should be priced. So hey, lets just 'iterate' and find out where the pain point is and at what point players revolt...

    Turns out they found out that pain point sooner than they expected.

    [edit] anyone know why c&p from the PDF results in massive duplication?
    Last edited by Kate Yeats; September 9 2011 at 08:08:24 PM.

  18. #18

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    The fact that ship spinning is an issue that warrants discussion at all says alot about all parties involved.




  19. #19
    Xiang Jiao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    They literally stop listening and processing beyond that technical validation, and pass it forward as success. It's a huge problem, since any product delivery can be technically perfect yet commercially counterproductive (to give just one scenario).

    Not that it stops them if they do not get that technical validation. Take Tyrannis. It was madness. But they got their validation of "it is new, nobody has done that before" and used that as a marker of success for messaging.
    It would be trivial for them to see how commercially receptive the customers have received the expansions, and share that information with the council and/or player via a QEN (they're yearly now, right?) or some other avenue. How many have trained and used the PI skills, and how many people have the Incarna environment disabled versus how many have participated in at least one Incursion, or how many have entered a wormhole? If those numbers are ever compared, and CCP understands them, they can see what is a success with players and what isn't. Dominion isn't as cut and dry to analyze, but if you recall the devs actually did before and after snap shot comparisons of null sec populations, and then published that information in the QEN. They were trying to understand the affects of Dominion on the players, were they not? Why do they have the blinders on and lips sealed now?

    With Dust514 upcoming next Summer, I don't think they will be able to casually avoid the metrics, but how would you gauge the success of Dust among Eve players? How many player contracts are issued? Will we be shown these numbers when the time is right or will they be obfuscated?

    BTW, I haven't actually read the meeting minutes yet, but I will eventually.

    The second leg of the session involved showing the CSM how Incarna was received in terms of subscriber numbers and trends as well informing them of other business analytics metrics. While the initial trends gave an indication of how things will go, they don’t tell whole story. The CSM and CCP had a productive dialogue regarding these trends and how they compared to previous expansions.
    What of it?
    Last edited by Xiang Jiao; September 9 2011 at 08:37:19 PM.

  20. #20
    Helicity's Avatar
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    I'm beginning to wish I had run for CSM...

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