Reality Check

[a mitten]

The Alt being equal to a Main is largely a function of the CSM evolving itself through tweaks and innovations. The whole Main/Alt distinction was created when the CSM was a pseudo-parliamentary body, and Voting Mattered. Alts didn't vote, and in a CSM focused on shovelling bullshit from the Assembly Hall into a wiki that no one ever reads, the Alt/Main distinction matters.

Today, when most of the 'CSM Work' happens at Summits and in persuading devs on Skype to do what the players want, influence is a matter of bothering to communicate and doing it effectively. So alts like Two Step who are around and participate a lot can do much more day-to-day than a main like Killer2 whose AUS timezones and RL situation mean that he can't do much.

CSM6 has a weird core of people who are constantly busy and do a shitload. There's pretty much a group who's always doin' thangs and a few who do essentially nothing (or literally nothing, in Prom's case). Thankfully the busy group outnumbers the stragglers who don't contribute.

[Liptonez]

TBH I think the playerbase, and people on this forum, send contradictory messages. Here people are bemoaning a lack of iteration and fixes etc... (which I totally agree is one of the biggest problems right now) but those same people then go on to mock the last several expansions for a lack of content and start going "oh when are we getting new ship-types" etc...

The problem is, neither fixes or new features are being done right because people are complaining about both and so CCP is trying to do both while also setting itself an impossibly tight schedule. I think CCP would benefit from switching their expansion cycle to an annual thing with staggered iteration and fixes throughout the year. Then you don't need to have some half-arsed "content" just so you can meet some arbitrary 6-month release schedule and you also get a decent amount of time to see how your new content has settled in and work to make it better, rather than having to instantly jump onto the next project cause it's gotta be ready to roll out in a few months.

Let me do a quick rundown of their expansions (this is from Wikipedia):
2004, Exodus: BCs, destroyers, mining barges, POSes, Plexes... Read up this thing, THIS is an expansion link
2005, Exodus: Cold War: Freighters, dreadnoughts, outposts
2005, RMR: Carriers, Supercaps, 23 T2 ships, lots of other small stuff
2006, Bloodlines (I've never even heard of this?): No real content according to wikipedia
2006, Reveleations: Exploration, t2 invention, rigs, boosters, 8 new regions, more BS/BCs.
2007: Revelations II: Overheating, mostly small stuff and fixes
2007: Trinity: Don't need to say anything here, THIS is an expansion. ~boot.ini~
2008: Empyrean Age: FW, first candidate for no content.
2008: Quantum Rise: Orca, no content.
2009: Apocrypha. Real expansion.
2009: Dominion: No content (besides fucking up sov and supers)
2010: Tyrannis: PI, EVE Gate, landmarks - "no one" uses all this stuff.
2010: Incursion: Revenant (which shall not be seen in game for the next 5 years), faction bombers, Incursions (which no one asked for, BUT they have a lot of potential), new characters. Almost an expansion.
2011: Incarna. Either a screenshot or useless walking around in a box, should be called EVE Online: If it makes sense, remove it.

We actually haven't seen much since 2007. Aside from Apocrypha I guess.

[florestan]

2006, Bloodlines (I've never even heard of this?): No real content according to wikipedia.

was a delayed part of RMR that introduced the 4 Asian bloodlines (Khanid, Achura, Jin Mei, Vherokhior)

no expansion in its own right, just a patch with content that was originally scheduled to be released on RMR launch but wasn't ready in time.

[zergl]

Let me do a quick rundown of their expansions (this is from Wikipedia):
2004, Exodus: BCs, destroyers, mining barges, POSes, Plexes... Read up this thing, THIS is an expansion link
2005, Exodus: Cold War: Freighters, dreadnoughts, outposts
2005, RMR: Carriers, Supercaps, 23 T2 ships, lots of other small stuff
2006, Bloodlines (I've never even heard of this?): No real content according to wikipedia
2006, Reveleations: Exploration, t2 invention, rigs, boosters, 8 new regions, more BS/BCs.
2007: Revelations II: Overheating, mostly small stuff and fixes
2007: Trinity: Don't need to say anything here, THIS is an expansion. ~boot.ini~
2008: Empyrean Age: FW, first candidate for no content.
2008: Quantum Rise: Orca, no content.
2009: Apocrypha. Real expansion.
2009: Dominion: No content (besides fucking up sov and supers)
2010: Tyrannis: PI, EVE Gate, landmarks - "no one" uses all this stuff.
2010: Incursion: Revenant (which shall not be seen in game for the next 5 years), faction bombers, Incursions (which no one asked for, BUT they have a lot of potential), new characters. Almost an expansion.
2011: Incarna. Either a screenshot or useless walking around in a box, should be called EVE Online: If it makes sense, remove it.

We actually haven't seen much since 2007. Aside from Apocrypha I guess.

Despite being arguably not too heavy on content, both EA and QR contributed to the game.

EA brought FW which could be glorious if just some more thought and work would be put into it.

QR brought the speed nerf which was pretty much a core game mechanic overhaul and yes, it was necessary, although I think it nerfed nano a bit too heavily.
It also made transport ships somewhat less useless (and the Orca is a rather popular utility/transport ship even outside its intended carebear mining role).


And while I'm with you in that Incursion was relatively decent (the best since Apocrypha), I'd also :tinfoil: that it was just a quick bone to the players after the Summer Of RAEG using very minor dev resources as almost everything needed for them was already ingame in one form or another.
Sleeper NPC/AI -> Incursion sansha NPCs. W-Space Spatial Phenomena -> System Penalty (multiplied by Progress Bar). FW complex beacons -> Incursion sites.
Obviously still needs game design and programming manpower to adapt and put it all together (and add the few genuinely new bits such as measuring and comparing competing fleet's performances in a site), but arguably less than if you were to completely build it from scratch.



Also, this is the place to look up EVE release history. http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/eve_releases.php

2007-12-05		45017 Side B	4.1.45017	Trinity (code name: Kali 3)		New graphics engine: Higher texture resolutions More detailed models for stations, stargates and ships Electronic Attack Ships, Heavy Interdictors, Black Ops, Marauders Drone Bandwidth Killmails are now part of the character sheet Hacking containers are removed from COSMOS sites boot.ini cleanup

[killfalcon]

2010: Incursion: Revenant (which shall not be seen in game for the next 5 years), faction bombers, Incursions (which no one asked for, BUT they have a lot of potential), new characters. Almost an expansion.

ISTR the Noctis was part of Incursion, and that was a good (if small) example of CCP putting in content based on what players actually did in game.

[two step]

Sentry guns no longer pod players

Now there is a change that should be rolled back...

[bobgainsfield]

ISTR the Noctis was part of Incursion, and that was a good (if small) example of CCP putting in content based on what players actually did in game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansi...line#Incursion

Incursion

Release Date: November 30, 2010.

Incursion was announced on September 21. The expansion will feature the "escalating attacks of the deadly Sansha's Nation". Players will be able to join public fleets and co-operate to repel the Sansha incursions, receiving bounties and earning loyalty rewards. Incursion also includes many improvements as suggested by the CSM, as well as hardware upgrades, software improvements and new cluster components aimed at increasing game performance.

Additionally, the character creator was updated with CCP's Carbon character technology for new pilot portraits. Finally, CCP added a Sansha Mothership, the Revenant, Fighter-bombers, the Noctis salvaging vessel, improvements to NPCs and their AI, new loot and rewards, storyline events and a more dynamic and simplified system for Planetary Interaction. The web-based social networking platform, EVE Gate, and the official forums received updates in the Incursion expansion as well.

CCP released the Incursion expansion in three phases: a first-step patch with a collection of player-requested improvements on November 30, a second-step patch with hidden features before December 25, and a third-step patch that included key features of the expansion (Incarna Character Creator, Sansha Incursions) on January 18, 2011. CCP has stated that this method of implementation prevents a large number of bugs from infiltrating the code, and the key features "will benefit greatly from an additional level of polish."

During the second-step patch the learning skills were removed. Players were reimbursed in two ways, they got their invested skill points back which they then could redistribute to their liking or, when they hadn't already inserted the skillbook, they got the NPC price back.

So yes, the Noctis was in there. Incursions are actually pretty viable IMO, never done one, but they've brought interest back to Eve Online for some folks, so it's better than some other recent patches.

[Xiang Jiao]

As long as they keep running live events. which occasionally pop freighters on high sec gates, I'd say that CCP has a successful expansion with Incursion. Throw more pirate factions into the mix, and it would be more interesting. Unfortunately, this requires iteration on their part.

[Rans]

If mittani will actually continue his campaign against ccp he will be a true hero

[two step]

I totally agree that Incursions shouldn't be lumped in with the other useless expansions. It had good stuff, though it badly needs a balance pass (sites at a given level vary wildly in difficulty). It is also a great example of what could be done with more resources, as then we might have been able to get the other pirate factions attacking as well.

[Virtuozzo]

If mittani will actually continue his campaign against ccp he will be a true hero

He posted it's over already.

[Mashie Saldana]

uhhhh not really? theres those of us who have ISK to blow on plex to keep skill training alive so theyre not losing SP when/if the game turns it around.

I could run the game for years on PLEX, I'm still unsubbed.

[Mike deVoid]

He posted it's over already.

No, he said it was paused whilst they listen to CCP and allow them to communicate their intended actions.

Well actually, he specifically said "If it looks like CCP is going to ratfuck us we'll start with the thumbscrews again, but positive steps should be rewarded."

[Seleene]

I'd actually go a little further than that. For example, *nobody* on the CSM has heard a single word from Prometheus Exenthal this entire term. He hasn't posted a single post to the CSM forums, never came on Skype at all, hasn't emailed us, etc. I'd like to kick him off the CSM entirely. Right now, he is the 2nd alternate, so if 2 folks couldn't go to a summit, he in theory could just go to Iceland.

Nah, dude, I think the rest of us would 'request' that not happen and I think Xhagen would be happy to comply.

No, he said it was paused whilst they listen to CCP and allow them to communicate their intended actions.

Well actually, he specifically said "If it looks like CCP is going to ratfuck us we'll start with the thumbscrews again, but positive steps should be rewarded."

Confirming this. I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what CCP does and less of what they say.

[Mike deVoid]

What indication can you give around timescales? When do you expect to be talking to Arnar again? How long are you prepared to wait with no CCP comms to the players about changes/intentions?

Additionally, what is the reason for the wait? Does Arnar have to go negotiate additional funds before promises can be made? Or is it that the actual plans have to be written and details nailed down first? Or a third possibility?

[Traxio Nacho]

What indication can you give around timescales? When do you expect to be talking to Arnar again? How long are you prepared to wait with no CCP comms to the players about changes/intentions?

Additionally, what is the reason for the wait? Does Arnar have to go negotiate additional funds before promises can be made? Or is it that the actual plans have to be written and details nailed down first? Or a third possibility?

I have a feeling the reply is going to involve "NDA" somewhere in it (couldn't resist)

[Mike deVoid]

I have a feeling the reply is going to involve "NDA" somewhere in it (couldn't resist)

Me too. But it doesn't hurt to try to find out about things that are around the edges.

[Steph]

Confirming this. I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what CCP does and less of what they say.

God damn, I never get tired of hearing that. (b^_^)b

[bobgainsfield]

I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what CCP does and less of what they say.

You guys should make that the tag line of your CSM tenure... because really CCP cannot be reminded often enough that it's true.

[Kate Yeats]

Well actually, he specifically said "If it looks like CCP is going to ratfuck us we'll start with the thumbscrews again, but positive steps should be rewarded."

That'd be the same Mittens that thought the Emergency Summit represented progress on CCP's part and was happy to encourage everyone lay down the pitchforks?