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Thread: Status of emergency summit minutes?

  1. #41
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobgainsfield View Post
    Expect any such answer to be highly NDA'ed.
    I expect the answer to just be a no..

    In what interest is it of CCP to define microtransactions in eve? From a business standpoint streightjacketing them selves like that is idiotic. If they define it as clothing only, in 2 years when someone turns around and say 'hey you know what, people will pay for gold ammo' (example only) then they will be dragged out and shot in the press once again. They are trying to avoid the idea that they are evil and continually lie to their customers to get their money, not encourage it.. If however they given themselves some wiggle room then in 2 years when they do something stupid they can always claim they haven't broken their promise, we just misinterpreted it.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    And here, I thought that were carefully crafting a definition for Eve Microtransations, specifying if they would be just clothes (vanity only), or involve additional pay to win type items in the future. Wasn't this the whole point of the summit, anyway? Can the council confirm if we will finally be getting an answer on this?
    This is a good fucking point. The purpose of the emergency summit was to define the vision and communicate that accurately to the players. 60+ days after the summit, the extent of MTs in Eve still can't be defined? Good thing i am not CSM, I would have thrown in the towel in disgust long ago.
    Hi.

  3. #43
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aypse View Post
    This is a good fucking point. The purpose of the emergency summit was to define the vision and communicate that accurately to the players. 60+ days after the summit, the extent of MTs in Eve still can't be defined? Good thing i am not CSM, I would have thrown in the towel in disgust long ago.
    But then you wouldn't get to fly to iceland once in a while and get free beer and play under the table hand holding with CCP devs...
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aypse View Post
    I would have thrown in the towel in disgust long ago.

    The scary thing is...this is exactly what CCP is hoping for. They dont want to have to be checked on any longer and it appears theyre going to do whatever they can to troll the CSM members into discontent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    It is called a difference of opinion and if you're going to get so shirty about it, you might want to cancel your connection to the internet.




  5. #45
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobcake View Post
    The scary thing is...this is exactly what CCP is hoping for. They dont want to have to be checked on any longer and it appears theyre going to do whatever they can to troll the CSM members into discontent.
    I doubt this TBH. The CSM was a good publicity stunt for CCP (I believe they even had good intentions when starting it) and letting it die quietly is the only way out without turning all that good publicity in to bad. Its probably true that a few (team awesome) at CCP have never wanted the CSM and have worked to take them down, but this is probably because they are bad at their jobs and having someone highlight this would be bad for their career rather than actual malicious intent. (Self preservation)
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  6. #46
    Super Ponerator Global Moderator Evelgrivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    I doubt this TBH. The CSM was a good publicity stunt for CCP (I believe they even had good intentions when starting it) and letting it die quietly is the only way out without turning all that good publicity in to bad. Its probably true that a few (team awesome) at CCP have never wanted the CSM and have worked to take them down, but this is probably because they are bad at their jobs and having someone highlight this would be bad for their career rather than actual malicious intent. (Self preservation)
    It gets even scarier for Team Awesome when you consider how low CCP's standards are to begin with.

  7. #47
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    But if he did that he'd be risking his opportunity to not release timely minutes later!

    Incidentally we can hardly blame CCP for not communicating with us when the CSM communicates even less.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    But if he did that he'd be risking his opportunity to not release timely minutes later!

    Incidentally we can hardly blame CCP for not communicating with us when the CSM communicates even less.
    What do you think they should be communicating, and how often? AFAICT, they've laid out their priorities and have been up front about the cause of the delay of the minutes; it seems that the problems and holdups are mostly on CCP's end.

  9. #49
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    For proper tinfoilhattery you only have to assume CCP forged the voting results to make Mittens chair of CSM so he can help them sell their shenanigans.
    Quote Originally Posted by dstopia
    WHERE IS CCP AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THEM?????

  10. #50
    Donor Mynxee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsubutai View Post
    What do you think they should be communicating, and how often? AFAICT, they've laid out their priorities and have been up front about the cause of the delay of the minutes; it seems that the problems and holdups are mostly on CCP's end.
    Regular (2x a month), even if informal, updates about what CSM stuff is going on behind the scenes? Not the details of conversations, but maybe just some idea that something, anything, or nothing is going on. I mean, Trebor hasn't posted on his blog for almost two months. In CSM5, we had regular meetings that were publicly documented so people had a sense that there was activity. With CSM6, there's been almost no communication since that emergency summit. What is offered is ridiculously brief and provides zero insights into not only what is going on but the attitudes/opinions--however general--of the CSM delegates themselves regarding the current status of things or what CSM work they are doing. Hell, even Trebor (who in CSM5 was very present and communicative to the community) has posted very damn little that I've seen--even about his recent crowdsourcing exercise...except to answer questions about process and post results. It's like all the CSM6 members have been turned into Stepford Delegates.
    Last edited by Mynxee; August 30 2011 at 11:24:55 AM.

  11. #51
    Donor Mynxee's Avatar
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    Posted today by CCP Xhagen on EVE-O in Jita Park:

    Since I am the one responsible for getting the minutes out I'm the guy that is responsible for the delays.

    Here is the process so far:
    -I transcribed the initial text and sent to the CSM for commenting
    -Having gotten it back relatively quickly I sent it to the CCP people that need to read and comment
    -Sent the re-reviewed back to the CSM
    -The CSM objected to many of the reviews done
    -Edits have been going back and forth for a while now

    It has always been the aim to release any minutes from CCP/CSM meetings with the approval of everyone that participated. Sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is not. When the matters of tone and semantics come up the best way is to simply go through it step by step and resolve the differences. And this takes time.

    I realize that many are waiting for these minutes, but we want to get this right - it is just the question of finding the right 'right' that all parties can agree to. Specially when the subject is volatile and sensitive.

    The main point is that we will release these minutes, but we will only release them when all parties have accepted what is being written in the minutes.
    "...it is just the question of finding the right 'right' that all parties can agree to." What happens if that is impossible? It stays on the editing negotiation merry-go-round forever or simply gets tucked into File 13 when people stop caring?

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    But if he did that he'd be risking his opportunity to not release timely minutes later!

    Incidentally we can hardly blame CCP for not communicating with us when the CSM communicates even less.
    Yeah, I mean it isn't like you have CSM members posting in threads and stuff. We say nothing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    Regular (2x a month), even if informal, updates about what CSM stuff is going on behind the scenes? Not the details of conversations, but maybe just some idea that something, anything, or nothing is going on. I mean, Trebor hasn't posted on his blog for almost two months. In CSM5, we had regular meetings that were publicly documented so people had a sense that there was activity. With CSM6, there's been almost no communication since that emergency summit. What is offered is ridiculously brief and provides zero insights into not only what is going on but the attitudes/opinions--however general--of the CSM delegates themselves regarding the current status of things or what CSM work they are doing. Hell, even Trebor (who in CSM5 was very present and communicative to the community) has posted very damn little that I've seen--even about his recent crowdsourcing exercise...except to answer questions about process and post results. It's like all the CSM6 members have been turned into Stepford Delegates.
    I'm sorry, I actually read the minutes of the CSM meetings. I don't think I learned all that much from them about what *CCP* thought about stuff, all I learned was what you guys thought about the specific issue you were discussing, and 99% of those issues don't end up being addressed by CCP. The entire Assembly Hall/voting on issues thing is not all that useful, IMHO. I'd much rather have stuff like Greyscale's mountains of threads in features & ideas discussing specific issues and having CCP actually pay attention directly to players.

    The reason you haven't heard much from us since the summit is mostly because not much has been going on. We have had some really good discussions/interactions with some of the devs in the CSM internal forums, but with most of CCP (and some of the CSM) on vacation, not much has been going on.

    I (and Trebor and Whitetree) have been guests on a couple of podcasts talking about CSM stuff in the past month. I post here, I read most threads here. If you have specific questions, please ask away.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by two step View Post
    If you have specific questions, please ask away.
    WHERE IS MINUTES

    (Couldn't resist, sorry).

    What actions will the CSM take if they have been unable to reach agreement with CCP over the content of the minutes in say, a week?

  14. #54
    Donor Mynxee's Avatar
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    Thanks, two step. It is very difficult to keep track of where you guys are being active, to be quite honest. It would be much appreciated if you'd make a thread in Jita Park that you update with links to podcasts, significant forum discussions, etc., that you are engaged in so that the community has an easy way of knowing about and finding that stuff. And ask one of the forum mods to sticky it so it's always at the top. That would give you something to point people at when they start asking what the CSM has been doing and probably also encourage more positive engagement from the community. I'm assuming that is what you want.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by definatelynotKKassandra View Post
    What actions will the CSM take if they have been unable to reach agreement with CCP over the content of the minutes in say, a week?
    Wait another week! But in all seriousness, what exactly do we expect the CSM to do? We already know they won't take any of the various non-official avenues to release the minutes.

    two step, I'm personally curious if a specific segment of the minutes are being delayed by either CCP, or a specific CSM member.

    IE - we know that segments of the minutes are written by different CSM members, and then proofread by CCP. We know certain CSM members are perfectly happy to get snarky about their fellow members in certain segments and probably about CCP Dev's... but is there a specific segment thats being delayed?

    Other than "Lolz, MT!"

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobgainsfield View Post
    Wait another week! But in all seriousness, what exactly do we expect the CSM to do? We already know they won't take any of the various non-official avenues to release the minutes.
    I don't know, but I hope they realise that just letting it drag on isn't acceptable.

  17. #57
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    greyscale needs another blog post to further distil his roadmap.
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  18. #58
    Helicity's Avatar
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    Since I'm now unbanned, just forward me the unedited notes so I can release them for you and be re-banned post-haste :P

  19. #59
    Donor Mynxee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobgainsfield View Post
    Wait another week! But in all seriousness, what exactly do we expect the CSM to do?
    I don't know about anyone else, but for me it's good enough if they just communicate consistently and substantively in ways that don't require me to go on a fucking treasure hunt to find their communications. Even if the minutes NEVER came out but there was discussion about the frustrations of the process, for example, that would get a check in the "+" column as far as I'm concerned. Not that my opinion matters LOL!
    Last edited by Mynxee; August 30 2011 at 03:06:37 PM. Reason: add more snark!

  20. #60
    bobgainsfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    I don't know about anyone else, but for me it's good enough if they just communicate consistently and substantively in ways that don't require me to go on a fucking treasure hunt to find their communications. Even if the minutes NEVER came out but there was discussion about the frustrations of the process, for example, that would get a check in the "+" column as far as I'm concerned. Not that my opinion matters LOL!
    That sounds like a job for the CSM Secretary! Honestly the playerbase as a whole would probably be vastly less annoyed at the CSM if they just had a central repository of various blog posts / interviews / forum posts for even just a few of the more active members.

    From the wiki (yah yah, lolz)
    Secretary and Vice-Secretary
    Record minutes of all CSM meetings
    Record all CSM votes and results
    Publish an agenda for each CSM meeting
    Publish meeting minutes within three days of the meeting

    The current CSM did a really solid job of removing 100% of all accountability with their new flexible meetings... sort of ironic in hindsight, no?

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