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Thread: Crossing the line

  1. #201
    Frug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    It is that you outlined the question in your post ("is it wrong to purposefully go into something other people are enjoying and ruin it?") and then went on to explain how you see a clear and defined difference between cheating and greifing in context of that.

    I just meant that if you didn't see that distinction, then you'd see Mazz's point. Mazz makes point that 'cheating' is just another tool towards that same end goal.

    To me that makes perfect sense, once you'd decided to grief other players and make their life miserable (in game), there's no moral difference in doing it through legal game actions or illegal game actions and running the risk of a permaban.

    For Eve the 'my in game actions are no reflection of me IRL' line should hold true (on a moral level) regardless of what that action is.

    In fact the only reason offered why one is seen as immoral is entirely because CCP allow one behaviour and outlaw the other. Intent and outcome, key aspects of real world morality don't apply here.

    The suggestion then is that CCP are the arbitrators of what is or isn't moral by virtue of what is or isn't allowed. Obviously that's horseshit (and I'm not suggesting anyone here really believes that), s'just amusing to see it being offered.
    Never mind the fact that my asking why someone holds a belief, and doubting that they do, is not at all equated with it being "alien" to me. I understand the belief, I just think that the majority of people capable of tieing their own shoes don't actually believe it, but are instead trying to rationalize their petty behavior.

    I shall resist the urge to call you an obvious troll because nobody could be that stupid, and instead attempt to (albeit in an act of futility because I'm sure nobody will be able to work logically through this if you haven't done so already) ask you to explain an example that I think should be painfully obvious.

    Lets see if you can figure it out in only one sentence: It's ok to bluff in poker. Do you see where I'm going with this or must I hold your hand?
    Last edited by Frug; August 30 2011 at 10:49:36 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loire
    I'm too stupid to say anything that deserves being in your magnificent signature.

  2. #202
    Al Simmons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Lets see if you can figure it out in only one sentence: It's ok to bluff in poker. Do you see where I'm going with this or must I hold your hand?
    Just like it's ok to grief or cheat in Eve Online. Do you see where i'm going with this or must I hold your hand?

  3. #203
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Bluffing & griefing are legitimate, sanctioned game strategies. Cheating, by definition, isn't.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Simmons View Post
    Just like it's ok to grief or cheat in Eve Online. Do you see where i'm going with this or must I hold your hand?
    Of course you need your hand held simmons. That's why I was ignoring you and didn't read your last post.

    To save time, just in case he gives as idiotic a response as you just did: I didn't say it was ok to "bluff and cheat" in poker. I said it was ok to bluff in poker. Bluffing in poker is like lying/scamming in eve. If you believe that being ok with lying/scamming in eve means it's ok to hack the game, you also believe that poker should either be played without bluffing, or that it's ok to hide cards up your sleeve when you play. I'm sure if you're a childish brat you may rationalize to yourself that it's ok to cheat at poker because the other guy bluffed, but that's pathetic and probably the reason you have no friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loire
    I'm too stupid to say anything that deserves being in your magnificent signature.

  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Lets see if you can figure it out in only one sentence: It's ok to bluff in poker. Do you see where I'm going with this or must I hold your hand?
    Your analogy doesn't hold because bluffing doesn't 'purposefully go into something other people are enjoying and ruin it' therefore it doesn't equate to griefing.

    You're talking about a poker game where you are allowed to insult, degrade and punch the other players. A game where making the other players cry is a badge of honor and where you are allowed to steal from the pot so long someone is stupid enough to leave chips within arm's reach.

    This game is apparently one played by upstanding gentlemen of fine moral fiber. Unless someone slides a card out of their sleeve, then they are an immoral asshat.

    While I understand the rejection of cheating based on the fact it breaks the rules, I don't see how one is more morally pure and noble than the other.

    It is called a difference of opinion and if you're going to get so shirty about it, you might want to cancel your connection to the internet.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    It is called a difference of opinion and if you're going to get so shirty about it, you might want to cancel your connection to the internet.
    +rep...well said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    It is called a difference of opinion and if you're going to get so shirty about it, you might want to cancel your connection to the internet.




  7. #207

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    To quote George Carlin, "I feel I have the right to do anything I please... BUT if I do something you don't like, I think you have the right to kill me."

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcaradon View Post
    To quote George Carlin, "I feel I have the right to do anything I please... BUT if I do something you don't like, I think you have the right to kill me."
    less posting, more cyno effect


    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    It is called a difference of opinion and if you're going to get so shirty about it, you might want to cancel your connection to the internet.




  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by noobcake View Post
    less posting, more cyno effect
    I'm actually not very interested in cyno effect. I don't personally fly cap ships so I don't get to see it myself. So not much motivation doing it. I have been trying to add some kind of engine trail resembling the old trails, which actually provides functional advantage. I never really work on things that I don't care about :P

    Let's be real here, even if old cyno effect is back, it's not like any of you would resub or spend more than a few minutes checking it out. I'd rather make the game more fun for myself instead.

  10. #210
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    Actually, I popped a cyno just last night and was a bit disappointed. Not as if I had anything else to look at for ten minutes.
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcaradon View Post
    I'm actually not very interested in cyno effect. I don't personally fly cap ships so I don't get to see it myself. So not much motivation doing it. I have been trying to add some kind of engine trail resembling the old trails, which actually provides functional advantage. I never really work on things that I don't care about :P

    Let's be real here, even if old cyno effect is back, it's not like any of you would resub or spend more than a few minutes checking it out. I'd rather make the game more fun for myself instead.
    yeh, theres so few people out there who want to see the old cyno effect that 2 years later people are still begging CCP to bring it back. You're right...


    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    It is called a difference of opinion and if you're going to get so shirty about it, you might want to cancel your connection to the internet.




  12. #212
    Xiang Jiao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobcake View Post
    yeh, theres so few people out there who want to see the old cyno effect that 2 years later people are still begging CCP to bring it back. You're right...
    I think I've almost forgotten what it looks like.

    I find it curious that we have a lot of disagreement regarding Eve client mods and whether they should be used, but over in the WoT subforum, we have a thread listing what mods people like to use, complete with links and screen shots.

  13. #213
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    Eve is different to WoT - each WoT game is low-impact because if you win or lose, whatevs.

    Each time you lose a ship and get podded, Eve's incredibly high impact combat is brought home.
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    I think I've almost forgotten what it looks like.
    I will attempt to remind you..

    JESUS FUCKING CHRIST SPACE JUST RIPPED APART AND DELIVERED ME A CAP SHIP READY TO TARE ME A NEW ASSHOLE FUCK FUCK FUCK GET AWAY GET AWAY!!!

    That cover it?
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    I will attempt to remind you..

    JESUS FUCKING CHRIST SPACE JUST RIPPED APART AND DELIVERED ME A CAP SHIP READY TO TARE ME A NEW ASSHOLE FUCK FUCK FUCK GET AWAY GET AWAY!!!

    That cover it?

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiang Jiao View Post
    I think I've almost forgotten what it looks like.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    It is called a difference of opinion and if you're going to get so shirty about it, you might want to cancel your connection to the internet.




  17. #217
    Helen's Avatar
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    I still do a little sex wee when I remember the first time I dropped a cyno and 100 caps came through it. Was one of the most truly epic things I saw in EvE.

  18. #218
    Al Simmons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Of course you need your hand held simmons. That's why I was ignoring you and didn't read your last post.

    To save time, just in case he gives as idiotic a response as you just did: I didn't say it was ok to "bluff and cheat" in poker. I said it was ok to bluff in poker. Bluffing in poker is like lying/scamming in eve. If you believe that being ok with lying/scamming in eve means it's ok to hack the game, you also believe that poker should either be played without bluffing, or that it's ok to hide cards up your sleeve when you play. I'm sure if you're a childish brat you may rationalize to yourself that it's ok to cheat at poker because the other guy bluffed, but that's pathetic and probably the reason you have no friends.
    You didn't get angry enough for me, but you did nearly start crying actual tears, so post success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Yeats View Post
    Your analogy doesn't hold because bluffing doesn't 'purposefully go into something other people are enjoying and ruin it' therefore it doesn't equate to griefing.

    You're talking about a poker game where you are allowed to insult, degrade and punch the other players. A game where making the other players cry is a badge of honor and where you are allowed to steal from the pot so long someone is stupid enough to leave chips within arm's reach.

    This game is apparently one played by upstanding gentlemen of fine moral fiber. Unless someone slides a card out of their sleeve, then they are an immoral asshat.

    While I understand the rejection of cheating based on the fact it breaks the rules, I don't see how one is more morally pure and noble than the other.

    It is called a difference of opinion and if you're going to get so shirty about it, you might want to cancel your connection to the internet.
    Yeah seriously, come on. Like have you ever seen Casino Royale? While we're going with entirely fictional situations that Frug seems to love. In that film they are playing poker, but they are also fighting and killing thugs in between matches, getting poisoned, and kidnapping and then torturing each other. The card game is just the front, and that's what makes it such a great film with a lot of layers and nuance for the actors to get their teeth into.

    You ever watch poker on tv? It used to be only late night stuff but now there's whole channels for it. The actual game of poker, the cards and the chips, while interesting, isn't the main focus at all. It's about the interactions between the players, and the relationships they build up, and old grudges from old tournaments etc.

    It's the same in Eve right? Nobody gives a fuck any more if they lose a fleet of ships or fleets of ships for a month, or 10 titans at once in some PL derp. It's about the long game, the propaganda war, the information war, the stories, and ultimately the people. That's what keeps people coming back, the chance to make a name for themselves, or feel like part of something bigger and worthwhile in some way.

    I think you are the one, Frug, who needs to learn a thing or two about people and life if you can't see that some people will do anything it takes to win in a game, or life itself. And that's ok, and there's others that won't, and a whole spectrum of grey in between your black and white textbook definitions of "scamming" "griefing" "and cheating". Calling me a childish brat about this sounds patently ridiculous coming from you.
    Last edited by Al Simmons; August 31 2011 at 12:16:40 PM.

  19. #219

  20. #220
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    You are awesome and I owe you a coke.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

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