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Thread: Massive changes to industry upcoming . Capitals and supercapital prices skyrocketing

  1. #21
    Aliventi's Avatar
    Join Date
    June 16, 2012
    Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankunytjatjara View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I remember coalition supers costing 25b with a decent fit and maybe implants as well pre Halloween War.

    What's isk inflation been like over the past 5 years?
    Weird. ISK supply grew massively and PLEX prices kept climbing, but the bots/crabs also flooded the market with minerals and stuff so you could feed pirate BS fleets on the regular without blinking. Then we got blackout followed by ratting/mining changes and now PLEX are down and stuff is up. Sucks to be poor, I guess.

    What's blackout in this contest?
    CCP turned off local in nullsec. Unsurprisingly, this made the krabs mad and they logged off until CCP removed it.
    It was a limited time trial. It was not turned back on to appease krabs.
    Say what you want. CCP's bottom line is the only thing that matters. The decision to turn local back on wasn't made by CCP, but by the logged/unsubbed krabs for CCP.
    Well, no. Blackout was specified from the beginning to be a temporary event. You can't just dismiss that fact to try and keep your erroneous point valid.

    Guess what the data showed?
    It was not an undending ratter slaughter.

    A bunch died, but what really mattered was that those ratters (targets) simply dried up. The stopped logging in.

    The real solution to the over-reliance on local as an intel tool is to revamp PvE to not be dependant on local.

    I am pushing a type of pve that is behind accelleration gates (huge reduction in risk to the ratter while shooting rats, less local reliance) and instead transfer the risk to gates by making ALL anomaly PvE be escalation-chain based, forcing the reward to be locked behind the need to fly around a bit between systems chasing the end bounty. No more sitting in one system just farming.

    Obviously this needs to come with some solutions to nullified covops T3s, but that shouldn't be too hard.
    That is possibly the worst change you could make to nullsec ratting. Like... Wow... I doubt I could figure out a worse change.

  2. #22

    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Embracing Mediocrity
    A cloaked scout alt parked on the entrance gate combined with friendly citadels in every system would remove most of the risk for anyone willing to go to that effort.

    That said, I've thought more PvE should be behind acceleration gates for a long time now. It gives an alert player more time to escape, but anyone that does get caught is also harder to rescue in time to save them.

    edit: I don't think blackout was a bad idea necessarily, but for it to work for both predator and prey PvE needed to be overhauled in a way that finding NPCs / krabs to shoot was a bit more complicated than just warping to an anomaly on d-scan.
    Last edited by Boltorano; April 14 2021 at 03:46:45 PM.

  3. #23
    Aliventi's Avatar
    Join Date
    June 16, 2012
    Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
    Since I know you are going to read this, here is what you actually need to do:

    The problem with nullsec ratting is that it incentivizes single character ratting. This is because of two things: the sites can be done solo in a cheap ship, and as you put more characters in the site the isk/hr/character goes down. Compare this to WH C5 sites: You need either a dread, Maurader, or a roach fleet of nestors and leshaks to run them, and the more characters you put in to the site (up to a limit where you are pretty much alpha-ing the rats) increases the isk/hr/char of the site.

    The solution is to change nullsec ratting to force the ratters in to defensive fleets. The reason why is that a roaming fleet can easily catch and kill a single krabbing ishtar. Even a small response fleet changes the dynamic and makes the krab harder to kill. Imagine if the response fleet was baked in to the ratting fleet. The threshold for successfully killing any krab would be much higher, and therefore safer for the krabs and which would even be viable in a no-local environment.

    This requires a few changes: increase the EHP of the rats (so more DPS = more isk), increase the isk/EHP of the rats (more DPS = more isk), and make the rats more dangerous (So you can't solo sites anymore/require logi which means you are ratting in a defense fleet). Basically you need to make nullsec sites more like WH sites. The only ships that can solo a C5 sites are dreads and Marauders. Other than that you need a fleet of ships. This isn't to say that WH sites are perfect (I'll go in to a fix below that you really should bring to CCP.) As far as making the sites more dangerous: massive increase in DPS and webs. Also you need HIC rats (supers being unable to be pointed is dumb), more scrams, and the AI needs to spread scrams.

    So what's wrong with WH sites:
    Y'all noticed the amount of blue loot being generated and sold has gone up? The reason is roach fleets. Roach fleets consist of 10-15 nestors and leshaks with a command ship. The problem with roach fleets is two fold: The drifter can be run by subcaps and the sites aren't dangerous enough. If you have never run a c5 site it has 3 parts: the site, the avengers, and the drifter. The avengers spawn if you warp in capitals (3 for the first warp in of a dread, FAX, or carrier each. It goes up to 4 in C6 space). The drifter will spawn if you shoot a structure that spawns at the end of the site.The site payouts for C5s vary from ~150 mil-270 mil, the Avengers are like 30 mil isk each, and the drifter pays out a whopping 300 mil isk. So the drifter can be 50%-200% of the site payout.

    Problem 1: the sites aren't dangerous enough to roach fleets. You can think of the site having 3 instances of the AI: rats, avengers, and drifter. each instance will primary a single target. If you have 15 ships on grid the each isntance will scram 1 ship. So anytime the WHers try to fight a roach fleet they MJD away every ship they can. If there are no scrams alive then the entire fleet makes it out. Worst case one ship is scrammed and dies. No problem. The roach fleet easily earns enough to replace that T2 fit ship. So it is pretty much risk free PvE which should not exist at all in WH space, but there are zero tools available for WHers to stop 15 ships from MJDing once something appears on d-scan. The AI really needs to spread scrams and you need HIC scrams to prevent stabbed MJDing.

    Problem 2: The sites pay out WAY too much for the risk involved with roach fleets. Remember how the drifter is 50-200% of the payout for the sites? What you need to do is remove the drifter, put the blue loot from the drifter in to the Avengers, limit the total number of Avengers that can spawn to 3 (basically first capital warp in, no matter the capital, spawns the avengers. The 3 limit is so people can't spawn 900 mil isk worth of them by bringing a dread, FAX, and carrier), the you need to massively buff the alpha and tracking of the Avengers. Why? Roach fleets don't bring capital ships because they can get the max payout of the site without using capitals. This would force them to bring a capital ship. Now it won't stop then for warping it at 1000+ KM away and spawning the Avengers. But the massive buff to Avenger tracking and alpha means that the Avengers will alpha a BS, even under reps and with links. Even a single loss every site makes the Avengers not profitable to do. So right there you have remove 50+% of payout that risk-free roach fleet have. That will MASSIVELY drop the amount of blue loot being generated and sold. You have to be careful to balance the high alpha (probably should be at least 350-400k damage across the 3 avengers) because that will now alpha through the entire tank of a dread. So you need to adjust dreads and/or spread out the alpha at longer intervals.

    Problem 3: Trigavian filaments exist. Remember how in problem 1 the roach fleet's 15 ship MJD'd away? Their next step is to safe up, wait out their timers, group up, use a trig filament to get to trig space, then use another trig filament to get to highsec. This is a unbelievably large problem because if I am trying to kill a roach fleet I will try to catch them in a site, they escape because the site doesn't spread points, they roll safes so probing is very unlikely to succeed, they group up and filament to safety. THIS IS SOOOOOO DUMB! It should not be risk free to escape using filaments. You could probably fix this by having an activation timer on filaments. Or ban them from WH space. idk. The risk free escape of roach fleets using these is super bad.
    Last edited by Aliventi; April 14 2021 at 04:45:04 PM.

  4. #24

    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    [QUOTE=Aliventi;1941079]Since I know you are going to read this, here is what you actually need to do:

    While i agree on many points your starter is wrong. Blue loot is sold to npc entity and has non to do with the market as such.

    The roach aspect i agree on.

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..



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