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Thread: Eve mobility, a lasting mistake that is not addressed

  1. #1

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    Eve mobility, a lasting mistake that is not addressed

    Space is the ocean amongst stars. It is such an easy analogy that the crafts that move around in space is called ships. It is also an idea that gave eve some of its most fundamental flaws.

    The biggest complaint about Eve is the blob, and the ocean is simply a more blobby environment then on land. While armies often have to spread out and defend and fight along a wide front, navies often fought with entire national combat strengths and then some at one point of decision, and extremely "messed up" results have been shown like how the German high seas fleet blueballed the Royal Navy for the entire duration of WW1 after "winning" the battle of jutland with insufficient margin to stop Britain from building up her dreadnought blob to invincible levels. The entire history of kreigsmarine in ww2 is a illustrated example of how solo/small gang raiding just doesn't work, and even submarines work better in blobby wolfpacks.

    The reason why the ocean is more blobby and a bad idea to build eve around is simple:
    It is no slower, and sometimes faster, to move a large fleet then to move a small one across the ocean, and it means blobs have no weakness.

    On land, natural choke points and logistics limit large forces to be a lot slower then bigger ones and it is as a result, far less blobby and skirmishing actually works. This principle applies strongly in wormholes and as a result, it is a far better environment for fairer battles.
    ----
    Now, I'm by no means saying that there should be hard limits on fleet scales or anything. However, anything that makes it harder for larger forces to move faster then smaller ones is critical. Gates should impose traffic control if too many people try to jump in too short amounts of time, cyno should not allow infinite caps spawn in no time at all, and should require spool up, mass limits and a whole much of things. The basic rule that "bigger, more numerous, more power equals slower" must be build into all levels of design.

    I believe this is a design principle that should be adopted far ahead of other tweaking of sov mechanics that just swaps around time zone coverage, peak fleet strength, fleet composition and defender's advantage as the decider of sov fights without addressing the fact that the blob is too good at catching and killing ships on top of everything else. If the blob kills ships the best, then it doesn`t matter what other mechanics is in place for small gangs since they'd die and thus fail at those other objectives.
    Last edited by Shin_getter; August 12 2011 at 04:46:42 AM.

  2. #2
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    Nope. i'm perfectly fine with flying to a battle with 180 of my closest friends.

    What I would like is a bit more maneuvering during a battle, and more anti-blob tactics/equipment to encourage my fleet to break into four wings of 45 (or even further - squad by squad) rather than keep to that blob during battle.

    Personally, I think formations will be quite interesting - it will make blob organisation easier (is it really a blob in this case?) but it will make it so, so much easier to coordinate bombing runs.
    Last edited by Sponk; August 12 2011 at 04:59:19 AM.
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."

  3. #3
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    I think you're on to something here, however I feel that you're maybe being too restrictive. Maybe a mass limit on gates, limiting a fleet to say 50 HACs or 25 battleships in an instant jump, and then a mass limit on cynos allowing nearly limitless subcaps, but only 10 or so supercapitals, and say, 40 capitals. This way the blob still retains the power of its numbers but poses a specific logistical problem of getting cynos in place and having a titan online to be able to bridge said fleet through a cyno. More than likely, this would make titan bridging even more common as a means of getting around, however mass limits on gates would mean that small roaming fleets could get in, pick a fight, and get out, forcing the larger fleet to either give up, or send out a smaller fleet to make chase, therefore providing for ~~goodfights~~. Yes, the break off fleet from the larger foe could obviously have a cyno on it and drop the large fleet onto the small roaming fleet, however that would then require them to move the fleet off of whatever strategic objective they were holding, and it would require quite a bit of effort to get back.

  4. #4
    Gix Tyrionn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    however mass limits on gates would mean that small roaming fleets could get in, pick a fight, and get out, forcing the larger fleet to either give up, or send out a smaller fleet to make chase, therefore providing for ~~goodfights~~
    Either
    A. the time between the gate being refreshing is under the time for dropping/recreating squad and this is done to avoid it.
    B. Its lower and just a minor inconvenience increasing travel time/meaning nothing in combat unless you need 3x mass limits (first group holds cloak, second group jumps in as they decloak)
    C. It applies to everyone and small gangs get trapped by blobs who will shut down gates with jumping in/out.

    Lets say it only applies to fleets and it works to an extent where blobs need multiple fleets. Congrats you just nerfed logistics and buffed the less organized blobs. Now alpha fleet will truely reign supreme.

  5. #5
    FatFreddy's Avatar
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    space kraken

  6. #6
    Larkonis Trassler's Avatar
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    Mechanics allow for a well disciplined and sufficiently equipped 'small gang' to punch far above it's weight when dealing with a superior force (and I'm not just talking about bombers).

    The problem... as ever... is tactics and individual skill.
    Leaders, for the most part, are not competent enough to exploit the weaknesses of 'the blob'.
    Individuals, for the most part, lack the personal skill and discipline to be organised and led.

  7. #7
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gix Tyrionn View Post
    Either
    A. the time between the gate being refreshing is under the time for dropping/recreating squad and this is done to avoid it.
    B. Its lower and just a minor inconvenience increasing travel time/meaning nothing in combat unless you need 3x mass limits (first group holds cloak, second group jumps in as they decloak)
    C. It applies to everyone and small gangs get trapped by blobs who will shut down gates with jumping in/out.

    Lets say it only applies to fleets and it works to an extent where blobs need multiple fleets. Congrats you just nerfed logistics and buffed the less organized blobs. Now alpha fleet will truely reign supreme.
    It would apply to everyone. Let's say the blob does send out groups to jump in jump out to trap the gate. Intelligent small gangs then engage these groups who are jumping back and forth on the outside of the gate, resulting in ~~goodfights~~ once again.

  8. #8
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Add 15 seconds of no ship interaction minus ship warp speed (9 au/sec = 9 seconds) equals the time before your allowed to interact with your ship.

    Example: Vagabond jumps through a gate and has to wait 11.2 seconds before he can warp off/engage/turn on mwd.

    Just thinking out loud. vOv

  9. #9
    FatFreddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Add 15 seconds of no ship interaction minus ship warp speed (9 au/sec = 9 seconds) equals the time before your allowed to interact with your ship.

    Example: Vagabond jumps through a gate and has to wait 11.2 seconds before he can warp off/engage/turn on mwd.

    Just thinking out loud. vOv
    That is very well thought out and would never result in stupid imbalance for gatecamps

  10. #10
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatFreddy View Post
    That is very well thought out and would never result in stupid imbalance for gatecamps
    heh

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